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Apple Products and EU-wide Consumer Laws

39 points by 001sky 13y ago

jkldotio 13y ago
Years ago here in Austria I bought an iPhone 3G that from the beginning frequently didn't have reception where all other phones did, including a situation where I needed to call an ambulance because someone was in urgent need of medical attention and couldn't, and they never replaced it and gave me the run-around every time I contacted them. Finally they claimed that the liquid detectors being slightly off-white, rather than pink or red, meant it had been dropped in water when it was obviously just from humidity, a practice for which they were later sued.[1] They were also sued on the reception issue which affected thousands of phones, but again not in my jurisdiction. They have extremely poor service if they think they can get away with it, they are only kept honest in countries that have strong consumer protection laws. It's simply disgraceful to sell a multi-hundred dollar piece of equipment that can't perform its core function and then not replace it. [1] http://www.imore.com/apple-pay-53m-iphone-warranty-settlement http://www.imore.com/apple-pay-53m-iphone-warranty-settlemen...
logn 13y ago
I commented yesterday on another thread, worth repeating in case it helps people in the US: If you read their iOS and iPhone EULA's, they disclaim all sorts of liability but don't disclaim iPhone hardware damage caused by iOS. I argued with them for three days after an iOS update bricked my phone (outside of its warranty period) but only after pointing out this issue in the EULA did they finally replace the phone free of charge (with a refurb that had a scratched camera lens and bad battery). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6631457 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6631457
josteink 13y ago
With Apple acknowledging EU's consumer laws, maybe they should start looking into Micro-USB connectors as well?
- ZoFreX 13y ago
  The laws don't say you have to use micro-usb, they just suggest it.
- hyko 13y ago
  http://store.apple.com/uk/product/MD820ZM/A/lightning-to-micro-usb-adapter?fnode=3c http://store.apple.com/uk/product/MD820ZM/A/lightning-to-mic...
  - Kudos 13y ago
    I don't think that is ultimately going to satisfy the EU. I wouldn't be surprised to see Apple being required to bundle these with the devices.
    - ZoFreX 13y ago
      The directive is optional so I don't see why Apple would be forced to comply.
    - anextio 13y ago
      They are bundled with the devices in the EU.
      - Kudos 13y ago
        I bought an iPhone 5 direct from Apple in Ireland 6 months ago, it had no micro-usb adapter with it. Has it changed since then?
      - arrrg 13y ago
        They are not. My 5s didn’t include one. (Not that I need it. I have literally zero Micro USB cables and wall warts.)
- netcan 13y ago
  I'm really surprised Apple don't do this just for user friendliness. I have lots of USB cables and chargers that have accumulated. That means that I can plug in at work, in the car, at home.. etc. I only have one lightning cable that usually lives at work. I also have a cheap-crap 30 pin that I can never find for my old ipod that a rarely use. Basically this means that my ipad often runs out of juice and my ipod gets used even less. My guess is that there are a lot of old ipods that will not get a retirement job because they outlived their connectors.
arrrg 13y ago
Doesn’t really matter if the national implementation sucks. In Germany the burden of proof flips after a mere six months (from seller to consumer), so the two years aren’t worth much. How are you, as a consumer, supposed to prove that the defect was present when you were sold the device? At least until a few years ago that was also Apple’s point of view, making all the EU consumer protection laws completely useless in Germany.
- jnky 13y ago
  Yet in practice, I never had any trouble getting products repaired for free after 23 months or something along those lines. It may be that the burden of proof is on the buyer after six months, but in reality no company (except maybe Apple) really makes a fuss about it. Burden of proof is one thing, but as an EU citizen I expect my electronic devices to work at least two years. If a company were to argue that I have to proof a defect is really their fault after just a year, I would definitely never buy from them again.
k-mcgrady 13y ago
It's funny to see this here today. I've been on the phone and in store with Apple and my carrier today trying to get a faulty lock button sorted. Here's what I've learnt so far: It's the second time it's happened in 10 months but unfortunately the phone is 1 month out of the Apple 12 month warranty. Even with a cracked screen (glass not LCD and working fine) Apple was willing to replace it to fix the lock button until they noticed it was 13 months old (out of 12 month contract). At this point the EU warranty comes in (6 years in the UK - Apple actually informed me of this but I was already aware). It is the seller who has to cover it though and as I bought it from the carrier Apple pointed me to them. The problem is (and Apple actually warned me about this) the local carrier store manager. He's actually asked the local Apple store to stop informing people of their 6 year warranty rights and refused to help me. On the phone they have been just as useless failing to acknowledge any EU warranty laws. At this point I'm waiting to hear back from some higher up at the carrier. Fortunately I contacted Apple via phone and they were much more helpful. I'm still waiting to hear back (the person on the phone had to speak to someone more senior) but as it's just out of warranty and the second time I've had the fault it sounds like they might replace it. tl;dr The EU warranty laws apply to the seller not the manufacturer. Don't buy from a carrier (they are assholes), buy from Apple. If Apple sets up your contract with the carrier they become the seller and will be more helpful.
- sp332 13y ago
  Since it's the second time it's happened, can you claim that they didn't fix it properly the first time (when it was under warranty)?
  - k-mcgrady 13y ago
    Apparently they can't fix the lock button. First time round they just gave me a brand new device. It seems like the lady on the phone now is going to help me out (although she's probably pulling a few strings). The moral of the story is that carriers suck and even out of warranty Apple is at least trying to help.
- nicholassmith 13y ago
  This has been my experience as well. Dealing with the carrier over it was awful, but going to an Apple store saw me given me a new phone there and then (and I was out of warranty). Obviously it's dependent on the problem (1st: case cracked, 2nd: lock button failure) but I've always found them to be very helpful when dealing with failures.

39 points by 001sky 13y ago

Years ago here in Austria I bought an iPhone 3G that from the beginning frequently didn't have reception where all other phones did, including a situation where I needed to call an ambulance because someone was in urgent need of medical attention and couldn't, and they never replaced it and gave me the run-around every time I contacted them. Finally they claimed that the liquid detectors being slightly off-white, rather than pink or red, meant it had been dropped in water when it was obviously just from humidity, a practice for which they were later sued.[1] They were also sued on the reception issue which affected thousands of phones, but again not in my jurisdiction. They have extremely poor service if they think they can get away with it, they are only kept honest in countries that have strong consumer protection laws. It's simply disgraceful to sell a multi-hundred dollar piece of equipment that can't perform its core function and then not replace it. [1] http://www.imore.com/apple-pay-53m-iphone-warranty-settlement http://www.imore.com/apple-pay-53m-iphone-warranty-settlemen...

logn 13y ago

I commented yesterday on another thread, worth repeating in case it helps people in the US: If you read their iOS and iPhone EULA's, they disclaim all sorts of liability but don't disclaim iPhone hardware damage caused by iOS. I argued with them for three days after an iOS update bricked my phone (outside of its warranty period) but only after pointing out this issue in the EULA did they finally replace the phone free of charge (with a refurb that had a scratched camera lens and bad battery). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6631457 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6631457

josteink 13y ago

With Apple acknowledging EU's consumer laws, maybe they should start looking into Micro-USB connectors as well?

ZoFreX 13y ago
The laws don't say you have to use micro-usb, they just suggest it.
hyko 13y ago
http://store.apple.com/uk/product/MD820ZM/A/lightning-to-micro-usb-adapter?fnode=3c http://store.apple.com/uk/product/MD820ZM/A/lightning-to-mic...
- Kudos 13y ago
  I don't think that is ultimately going to satisfy the EU. I wouldn't be surprised to see Apple being required to bundle these with the devices.
  - ZoFreX 13y ago
    The directive is optional so I don't see why Apple would be forced to comply.
  - anextio 13y ago
    They are bundled with the devices in the EU.
    - Kudos 13y ago
      I bought an iPhone 5 direct from Apple in Ireland 6 months ago, it had no micro-usb adapter with it. Has it changed since then?
    - arrrg 13y ago
      They are not. My 5s didn’t include one. (Not that I need it. I have literally zero Micro USB cables and wall warts.)
netcan 13y ago
I'm really surprised Apple don't do this just for user friendliness. I have lots of USB cables and chargers that have accumulated. That means that I can plug in at work, in the car, at home.. etc. I only have one lightning cable that usually lives at work. I also have a cheap-crap 30 pin that I can never find for my old ipod that a rarely use. Basically this means that my ipad often runs out of juice and my ipod gets used even less. My guess is that there are a lot of old ipods that will not get a retirement job because they outlived their connectors.

arrrg 13y ago

Doesn’t really matter if the national implementation sucks. In Germany the burden of proof flips after a mere six months (from seller to consumer), so the two years aren’t worth much. How are you, as a consumer, supposed to prove that the defect was present when you were sold the device? At least until a few years ago that was also Apple’s point of view, making all the EU consumer protection laws completely useless in Germany.

jnky 13y ago
Yet in practice, I never had any trouble getting products repaired for free after 23 months or something along those lines. It may be that the burden of proof is on the buyer after six months, but in reality no company (except maybe Apple) really makes a fuss about it. Burden of proof is one thing, but as an EU citizen I expect my electronic devices to work at least two years. If a company were to argue that I have to proof a defect is really their fault after just a year, I would definitely never buy from them again.

k-mcgrady 13y ago

It's funny to see this here today. I've been on the phone and in store with Apple and my carrier today trying to get a faulty lock button sorted. Here's what I've learnt so far: It's the second time it's happened in 10 months but unfortunately the phone is 1 month out of the Apple 12 month warranty. Even with a cracked screen (glass not LCD and working fine) Apple was willing to replace it to fix the lock button until they noticed it was 13 months old (out of 12 month contract). At this point the EU warranty comes in (6 years in the UK - Apple actually informed me of this but I was already aware). It is the seller who has to cover it though and as I bought it from the carrier Apple pointed me to them. The problem is (and Apple actually warned me about this) the local carrier store manager. He's actually asked the local Apple store to stop informing people of their 6 year warranty rights and refused to help me. On the phone they have been just as useless failing to acknowledge any EU warranty laws. At this point I'm waiting to hear back from some higher up at the carrier. Fortunately I contacted Apple via phone and they were much more helpful. I'm still waiting to hear back (the person on the phone had to speak to someone more senior) but as it's just out of warranty and the second time I've had the fault it sounds like they might replace it. tl;dr The EU warranty laws apply to the seller not the manufacturer. Don't buy from a carrier (they are assholes), buy from Apple. If Apple sets up your contract with the carrier they become the seller and will be more helpful.

sp332 13y ago
Since it's the second time it's happened, can you claim that they didn't fix it properly the first time (when it was under warranty)?
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  Apparently they can't fix the lock button. First time round they just gave me a brand new device. It seems like the lady on the phone now is going to help me out (although she's probably pulling a few strings). The moral of the story is that carriers suck and even out of warranty Apple is at least trying to help.
nicholassmith 13y ago
This has been my experience as well. Dealing with the carrier over it was awful, but going to an Apple store saw me given me a new phone there and then (and I was out of warranty). Obviously it's dependent on the problem (1st: case cracked, 2nd: lock button failure) but I've always found them to be very helpful when dealing with failures.