8 ms·

Enough with the "citation needed". This isn't Wikipedia. People have the right to express an opinion or don't have reference for everything they say. How would

Enough with the "citation needed". This isn't Wikipedia. People have the right to express an opinion or don't have reference for everything they say. How would you react if someone told you "citation needed" every time you make a claim?

colanderman 13y ago
I would learn to write "I think that" in front of things that are my opinions.
- scott_s 13y ago
  This sub-thread follows the same pattern as one I participated in over a year ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4272117 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4272117
- bronbron 13y ago
  That sounds repetitive and kind of annoying to read. It's usually obvious from context what's opinion and what's not, and you can always ask for clarification in those rarer instances. For example, it's pretty obvious the OP is stating opinion. You don't need to couch your opinions with "I think" or "It's my opinion that". Have some conviction.
  - dspillett 13y ago
    > Obvious to you. And me for that matter. Obvious to you, and me for that matter, but obviously not obvious to everyone or this sub-thread would not exist. Every one in this threat seems to be well enough versed on English that a specific language barrier isn't an issue, but there are probably people for whom English is a third or forth language: the chance of them seeing as obvious everything that we pick out as obvious is going to be lower than for those with more practise at the language. > Have some conviction. It is not about conviction, it is about accurately displaying the source and potential veracity of the information being presented. I couch my opinions so it doesn't look like I'm stating a commonly known fact instead of something I've supposed. Of course where I'm pretty damn sure what I'm stating is verifiable fact I'll not bother adding the extra words, but if you always assume you are correct and write in a style that suggests such, then you may be one of those people! Adding a few extra words to tell the reader this extra information about the (potential) quality of the information you are about to impart is useful IMO. Be as fine grained as you like too: somewhere between "I think that" and "I know" is "It is my understanding that..." and so on.
    - bronbron 13y ago
      > Obvious to you, and me for that matter, but obviously not obvious to everyone or this sub-thread would not exist. Why sacrifice conciseness to try and alleviate every misunderstanding? Language is not a perfect communication tool - you'll talk yourself dizzy trying to catch every edge case and possible interpretation. > Every one in this threat seems to be well enough versed on English that a specific language barrier isn't an issue, but there are probably people for whom English is a third or forth language: the chance of them seeing as obvious everything that we pick out as obvious is going to be lower than for those with more practise at the language. Great! So we're doing them a great service by giving them practice in reading context. > It is not about conviction, it is about accurately displaying the source and potential veracity of the information being presented. Why? This isn't an academic discussion. If it looks like you're presenting something as a fact and I think you're full of shit, I'll ask for a clarification. Much like the poster did with the "[citation needed]". The OP's message remains easy to read, and the sub-poster got the clarification they were looking for. > I couch my opinions so it doesn't look like I'm stating a commonly known fact instead of something I've supposed. Of course where I'm pretty damn sure what I'm stating is verifiable fact I'll not bother adding the extra words, but if you always assume you are correct and write in a style that suggests such, then you may be one of those people! Adding a few extra words to tell the reader this extra information about the (potential) quality of the information you are about to impart is useful IMO. Be as fine grained as you like too: somewhere between "I think that" and "I know" is "It is my understanding that..." and so on. You're sacrificing conciseness for a very weak attempt at clarity. It's incredibly tedious to read someone's opinion piece that says "It's my opinion that vaccines are dangerous. I think that X. I believe that Y. I am of the opinion that Z." It makes your message incredibly boring and unpersuasive. Further, trying to turn this into an academic discussion brings into question all the issues academic discussions engender. How reliable is your source? Have you done the appropriate background reading? If you link a study that says "vaccines are bad" but there are 300 other studies that say "vaccines are good", are you really being objective? And then of course we can get into some really stupid semantic debates, since we're arguing about semantics anyway - what's the cutoff? If I say "the barn is red", do you want spectroscopy results?
      - 13y ago
- jgroszko 13y ago
  Of course you think that, you're the one writing it!
specialist 13y ago
I'm okay with this request for citation. Having spent a lot of time around kids, I have a completely different view. Most everyone is born a genius angel with unbounded potential, which is too often beat out of them by cruel parents, vicious peers, and an uncaring society. YMMV.
- DanBC 13y ago
  > I'm okay with this request for citation. The [citation needed] is needlessly irritating to a number of people. When I'm trying to catch your attention I can clear my throat and say "oh, hey, specialist", or I can jab you in the ribs. A few people see [citation needed] as a jab in the ribs.
- aurelius 13y ago
  I have three kids of my own, and I can tell you that everyone is not "born a genius angel with unbounded potential". It's more like everyone is born with a unique set of character traits, mental abilities, and inclinations -- we're all different. But, in every case, training and discipline must be applied in order to cultivate those natural traits into something resembling civilization. Without that, I can assure you, children tend naturally toward savagery.

colanderman 13y ago

I would learn to write "I think that" in front of things that are my opinions.

scott_s 13y ago
This sub-thread follows the same pattern as one I participated in over a year ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4272117 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4272117
bronbron 13y ago
That sounds repetitive and kind of annoying to read. It's usually obvious from context what's opinion and what's not, and you can always ask for clarification in those rarer instances. For example, it's pretty obvious the OP is stating opinion. You don't need to couch your opinions with "I think" or "It's my opinion that". Have some conviction.
- dspillett 13y ago
  > Obvious to you. And me for that matter. Obvious to you, and me for that matter, but obviously not obvious to everyone or this sub-thread would not exist. Every one in this threat seems to be well enough versed on English that a specific language barrier isn't an issue, but there are probably people for whom English is a third or forth language: the chance of them seeing as obvious everything that we pick out as obvious is going to be lower than for those with more practise at the language. > Have some conviction. It is not about conviction, it is about accurately displaying the source and potential veracity of the information being presented. I couch my opinions so it doesn't look like I'm stating a commonly known fact instead of something I've supposed. Of course where I'm pretty damn sure what I'm stating is verifiable fact I'll not bother adding the extra words, but if you always assume you are correct and write in a style that suggests such, then you may be one of those people! Adding a few extra words to tell the reader this extra information about the (potential) quality of the information you are about to impart is useful IMO. Be as fine grained as you like too: somewhere between "I think that" and "I know" is "It is my understanding that..." and so on.
  - bronbron 13y ago
    > Obvious to you, and me for that matter, but obviously not obvious to everyone or this sub-thread would not exist. Why sacrifice conciseness to try and alleviate every misunderstanding? Language is not a perfect communication tool - you'll talk yourself dizzy trying to catch every edge case and possible interpretation. > Every one in this threat seems to be well enough versed on English that a specific language barrier isn't an issue, but there are probably people for whom English is a third or forth language: the chance of them seeing as obvious everything that we pick out as obvious is going to be lower than for those with more practise at the language. Great! So we're doing them a great service by giving them practice in reading context. > It is not about conviction, it is about accurately displaying the source and potential veracity of the information being presented. Why? This isn't an academic discussion. If it looks like you're presenting something as a fact and I think you're full of shit, I'll ask for a clarification. Much like the poster did with the "[citation needed]". The OP's message remains easy to read, and the sub-poster got the clarification they were looking for. > I couch my opinions so it doesn't look like I'm stating a commonly known fact instead of something I've supposed. Of course where I'm pretty damn sure what I'm stating is verifiable fact I'll not bother adding the extra words, but if you always assume you are correct and write in a style that suggests such, then you may be one of those people! Adding a few extra words to tell the reader this extra information about the (potential) quality of the information you are about to impart is useful IMO. Be as fine grained as you like too: somewhere between "I think that" and "I know" is "It is my understanding that..." and so on. You're sacrificing conciseness for a very weak attempt at clarity. It's incredibly tedious to read someone's opinion piece that says "It's my opinion that vaccines are dangerous. I think that X. I believe that Y. I am of the opinion that Z." It makes your message incredibly boring and unpersuasive. Further, trying to turn this into an academic discussion brings into question all the issues academic discussions engender. How reliable is your source? Have you done the appropriate background reading? If you link a study that says "vaccines are bad" but there are 300 other studies that say "vaccines are good", are you really being objective? And then of course we can get into some really stupid semantic debates, since we're arguing about semantics anyway - what's the cutoff? If I say "the barn is red", do you want spectroscopy results?
    - 13y ago
jgroszko 13y ago
Of course you think that, you're the one writing it!

specialist 13y ago

I'm okay with this request for citation. Having spent a lot of time around kids, I have a completely different view. Most everyone is born a genius angel with unbounded potential, which is too often beat out of them by cruel parents, vicious peers, and an uncaring society. YMMV.

DanBC 13y ago
> I'm okay with this request for citation. The [citation needed] is needlessly irritating to a number of people. When I'm trying to catch your attention I can clear my throat and say "oh, hey, specialist", or I can jab you in the ribs. A few people see [citation needed] as a jab in the ribs.
aurelius 13y ago
I have three kids of my own, and I can tell you that everyone is not "born a genius angel with unbounded potential". It's more like everyone is born with a unique set of character traits, mental abilities, and inclinations -- we're all different. But, in every case, training and discipline must be applied in order to cultivate those natural traits into something resembling civilization. Without that, I can assure you, children tend naturally toward savagery.