9 ms·

Living on $5,000 a year, on purpose: Meet America's 'intentional poor'

47 points by ca98am79 13y ago

poulsbohemian 13y ago
Joseph, OR, where the guy with the "Hobbit House" lives is a really unique place. There are a lot of people who live on very little there - many are artists, some are hermits, most are just plain poor as it is a difficult place to make a living. My family ranched there for several generations and we still spend vacation time in the area. The people that live there - and really, you could extrapolate this to much of middle america - are living for a lifestyle, not in pursuit of the almighty dollar. It's pretty typical in Joseph to see a $50K pickup and $30K snowmobiles in front of a 40 year old single-wide trailer - whatever money they have goes into their "toys." Is this existence better or worse than the urban "keeping up with the Jones?" Depends on what you want in life. But make no mistake about it, even someone who chooses to downgrade their wants and needs doesn't automatically have life easy. There is already snow on the ground around Joseph and it won't warm up again until about June. I've been snowed on there on the 4th of July. You could spend thousands just keeping yourself from freezing to death. The Oregon department of fish and wildlife has to deal with a lot of poachers - some because they feel entitled to a "lifestyle" but others, it's probably pure survival. I see articles like this as mostly propaganda, trying to position the reality in which most americans live as a positive choice rather than the consequences of stagnate incomes, et al. We have shanty towns, hunger, malnutrition, unclean water - all the problems of the developing world - but they are perhaps less visible and/or effect a smaller number of the overall population in a visible way.
jlneder 13y ago
with that much you would live like a king in Argentine.
matt__rose 13y ago
Umm, this has been happening since the 60s. They called it "Going back to the land" Anyone interested should look up The Farm in Tennessee
ColinWright 13y ago
Discussed at length just over 2 weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6544012 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6544012 However, that's now old enough that comments are closed, so if you have anything extra to say, you'll need to say it here.
ctdonath 13y ago
$13/day. I want your suggestions on how to make it work. Starters: $1 per meal, see http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com ; creative use of http://Zillow.com http://Zillow.com or http://Trulia.com http://Trulia.com can find undeveloped building lots for under $2000. (Naysayers, this subthread isn't for you.)
- shubb 13y ago
  I'm writing from the UK, where living on the road is hard due to legals and climate. But if I lived in a high rent area of the US, I'd definitely look into getting a nice RV. In a city, this would at first seem impractical. But if you cut back to a much smaller vehicle, there is generally safe free parking to be found at night. Especially if your friend has an apartment, but doesn't use the parking. Gym membership for showers, kitchen at work, maybe a games room. You really only need a box to live in most days. This would let you pull in high wages, living low and gathering savings, then retire to the country to bootstrap your amazing SaaS business. Oh fantasy. Back in reality, I currently rent a bedroom from a fairly rich family. Especially during the winter, I save a huge amount on bills. The only problem is the lack of private space, but temporarily that's fine.
  - larsonf 13y ago
    Hey shubb, I've read your posts for a while; like the way you think. Let me buy you a pint next time I'm in London (in US right now, but there often enough). Thoughtful tech people in London good to find. an email that I made: specialemailforthisrightnow@gmail.com
    - shubb 13y ago
      Ha, why not. I'll send you an email.
- rubidium 13y ago
  It's easier to do if you're willing to live without a car and health insurance. I keep good track of what I spend, and live pretty frugally, so here's some info on "what's possible" (assuming a single person living in the midwest US). I eat for ~$90 a month (oatmeal, fruit, beans and rice, peanut butter and jelly, spaghetti, chicken once a week, ground beef once a week). I pay: -$200/month for rent and utilities (live in a house with 4 others guys in midwest collegetown). And it's a decent sized place with cable internet, so you could probably get cheaper (though likely not on the east or west coast). -$30/month for cell phone plan. -Computer was homebuilt from parts and is 4 years old. -$200/year for clothes/toiletries. That comes to about $11 a day. Now, my expenses or higher because I opt to have health insurance, a car, travel, and go out every now and then. It's the health insurance, living in high cost-of-living places, car, going out, and travel that makes your goal difficult.
kfk 13y ago
If you charge the costs of your pension (I challenge you can make even 5k when you are 80+ years old) and health on society, sure, you can live on that amount.
- VLM 13y ago
  That was also my first reaction to the title, "so I see they've met my grandmother". Prop tax on half a house and some maintenance is a couple hundred a month, and some food, that's about it. She obtained about 4,5,6 who knows how many times as much from pensions and from SS but she actually only spent perhaps $5K/yr on herself. Too old to drive safely, not into consumer electronics other than a top of the line TV and top of the line satellite subscription (only old people watch TV anymore), loved to cook / didn't like restaurant food / very picky about food, not into clothing fashions, what is someone like that supposed to spend money on for themselves, anyway? Mostly gave her money away to charities, family, etc.
netcan 13y ago
It's often useful to have someone exploring extremes. Philosophical extremes, lifestyle extremes, physical, etc. For example, I think reading Ayn Rand is useful even though I disagree with here on many points. I think many people feel like much of our modern wealth is "wealth." Long hours at Jobs we don't like. No free time. Dept. Constant financial worries. Social alienation. Hopefully they find some useful things that other people can use.
- hrkristian 13y ago
  The article makes no mention things like health insurance and other safety nets. What will he do when he grows too old to be autonomous? I'm all for the idea of going back to basics, advanced stages of anything usually comes with a lot of negative baggage, our western society included. However, living "intentionally poor" means you're distancing yourself from everything, you're essentially back to the Middle Ages, and your quality of life depends solely on your genetics and luck in life. He breaks his foot, and suddenly he has to come crawling back to the "system" he once was a slave of. A system he no longer deserves to be a part of because he's stopped contributing to it.
  - tonyedgecombe 13y ago
    "A system he no longer deserves to be a part of because he's stopped contributing to it." It seems to me he is contributing in many ways, they just aren't financial.
  - netcan 13y ago
    I'm not sure that living "intentionally poor" means anything in particular. The article gives two example: a guy in a hobbit hole and a girl in a cheap NY room. Both are using macs and making a little money online. Doesn't sound medieval to me. Anyway, the article isn't about a "mid sized country" deciding to live in a hobbit hole. It's about a few individuals. They're trying to find a satisfying way of living. This anger about not contributing to the system feels very off to me.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
pinaceae 13y ago
only rich and bored people want to be poor. this is like painting yourself black to prove you can live under racism.
- ChikkaChiChi 13y ago
  No, that's called blackface, racist.
- sanoli 13y ago
  In Brazil there's a saying: "Poor people like luxury. The ones who like poverty are intellectuals."
  - oftenwrong 13y ago
    I would say "The ones who like poverty are not poor"
- spurgu 13y ago
  How about people who don't feel like locking themselves to a certain job and/or wage level, just to be able to afford and maintain the lifestyle mid+ income earners see as a necessity (when it most certainly isn't)? Freedom comes in many forms.
personlurking 13y ago
I've lived poor on a little more than $5000/yr for several years now, though it's due to living in developing nations and/or countries with hard-hit economies. I still want things but I fully recognize it's just a want and not a need. Would I live 'normally' if I made more money? Well, I've come to find that paying for experiences is more important than having status or things that represent it. Most of my current friends are not as poor as me but they aren't rich either. Though, I spent all of my teens with 'rich kids', for one reason or another, and they seemed to have no clue about how good they had/have it. If we all had to start from scratch, I'd survive while they wouldn't. When the basics aren't covered automatically, there's a large psychological toll (the scarcity trap) that affects every single decision made. I'd rather know the art of being frugal than be oblivious to it (and how much of the world lives)...but I must say, the scarcity trap can be hell to deal with.
Shivetya 13y ago
Living on 5000 is enough is simple enough when you start out with everything that is expensive already in your possession. I have seen people live frugally, none of the cases in this story are meaningful. I am more interested in the unintentional poor, because by calling these people intentional means its a lifestyle choice. Lifestyle choices let you stack the deck prior to taking the choice. Its the perfect choice of vapid selfish people.
- bluedino 13y ago
  $50/month for a phone, plus a MBA and iPad is an easy $1500, and that's buying used stuff.
  - pilom 13y ago
    Its not like he has to buy the MBA or the iPad every year. Also cell phones in the US are way less than $50/month if you don't go with ATT, Verizon, Sprint, or T-mobile. I get Unlimited everything (with no data caps) for $20/month on Republic Wireless.
fennecfoxen 13y ago
> “I don’t believe in houses or mortgages. Who in their right mind would spend their lifetime paying for a building they never get to spend time in because they are always working?” > The intentional poor are “looking for something real that goes beyond commodity,” said Karen Halnon, a sociology professor at Pennsylvania State University and author of "Consumption of Inequality." See, the historical edition of "something real" and the mainstream reason to pay for the house is called "your children". I don't expect many of these people are raising any, so there you go.
- lelele 13y ago
  > See, the historical edition of "something real" and the mainstream reason to pay for the house is called "your children". Your children need you way more than a pretty room. If saving on accommodation lets you spend less hours in the office and more hours with them, they will be happier for sure. The amount of space paid for and wasted in average houses is mind-blowing. Pay for what you use, not what you think you need. That's the gist of the article.
- codegeek 13y ago
  Exactly. I bought a house right after my first kid was born (second on the way) and I would not trade it for anything else. Yes I am paying the mortgage+ taxes and what not but I know that my kids are getting the environment we want as a family to grow up. Yes you can always argue that kids can be raised in rented apartments, condos etc. but to each his own. I recently painted one of the rooms for the kid and loved doing it. Imagine dealing with landlords asking for permission to put a nail on the wall. Many more things like this. tl;dr: People buy houses not because they see it as investment in terms of money (well thats also there to an extent but besides the point in this context), they buy it to call it their home where they have the freedom to do whatever the heck they want.
  - atwebb 13y ago
    As someone forced to rent with kids for the past several years (apparently contracting isn't a real job to banks), you got it exactly right. Floating around, without a defined base is really difficult and affects you more than you realize. Though you have to pay for upkeep on a house (and HOA/insurance/taxes) renting brings it's own issues (fees,deposits,moving expenses) and, in our area, rents are about 30-50% higher than a mortgage for a comparable house in a comparable neighborhood. Not to mention, the nice, stable neighborhoods don't have much rental action around here.
goshx 13y ago
[off-topic] I feel like I have been experiencing many dejavu's here lately. Doesn't HN have a detection for re-posts? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6544012 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6544012
- sp332 13y ago
  The repost detection is pretty fragile and often just doesn't work. It's up to the poster to make sure the story isn't a dup.
tehwalrus 13y ago
I'd love to try this sort of lifestyle, but I can't help thinking I'd be bored out of my mind after a few weeks (without power to run a computer - programming problems in the evening might be interesting enough.) I once worked minimum wage at Starbucks for a couple of weeks full time (gap between A-levels and starting uni.) I had worked there a day a week for about a year, and I enjoyed working there for that proportion of my time, alongside challenging-ish studies. But - when I hit the third or fourth day, the tiredness set in. Sweeping/mopping/hoovering a large store three evenings in a row, after being on your feet all day making coffee and smiling at people, is seriously hard work. And don't get me started on cleaning the loos. I am very courteous to people who work in retail. It's not quite doing odd jobs around the town, but it's certainly the order of magnitude of work required to live this kind of lifestyle. Also, does the $5,000 a year seriously cover a return flight to Hawaii?!
up_and_up 13y ago
I had friends that lived like kings in Santa Cruz CA for easily less than $500/year. They lived for free in hidden tents/camps above UCSC, ate/made free food with Food Not Bombs, biked everywhere around CA and generally just lived it up. There are other ways to exist and thrive in this world outside the grind.

47 points by ca98am79 13y ago

Joseph, OR, where the guy with the "Hobbit House" lives is a really unique place. There are a lot of people who live on very little there - many are artists, some are hermits, most are just plain poor as it is a difficult place to make a living. My family ranched there for several generations and we still spend vacation time in the area. The people that live there - and really, you could extrapolate this to much of middle america - are living for a lifestyle, not in pursuit of the almighty dollar. It's pretty typical in Joseph to see a $50K pickup and $30K snowmobiles in front of a 40 year old single-wide trailer - whatever money they have goes into their "toys." Is this existence better or worse than the urban "keeping up with the Jones?" Depends on what you want in life. But make no mistake about it, even someone who chooses to downgrade their wants and needs doesn't automatically have life easy. There is already snow on the ground around Joseph and it won't warm up again until about June. I've been snowed on there on the 4th of July. You could spend thousands just keeping yourself from freezing to death. The Oregon department of fish and wildlife has to deal with a lot of poachers - some because they feel entitled to a "lifestyle" but others, it's probably pure survival. I see articles like this as mostly propaganda, trying to position the reality in which most americans live as a positive choice rather than the consequences of stagnate incomes, et al. We have shanty towns, hunger, malnutrition, unclean water - all the problems of the developing world - but they are perhaps less visible and/or effect a smaller number of the overall population in a visible way.

jlneder 13y ago

with that much you would live like a king in Argentine.

matt__rose 13y ago

Umm, this has been happening since the 60s. They called it "Going back to the land" Anyone interested should look up The Farm in Tennessee

ColinWright 13y ago

Discussed at length just over 2 weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6544012 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6544012 However, that's now old enough that comments are closed, so if you have anything extra to say, you'll need to say it here.

ctdonath 13y ago

$13/day. I want your suggestions on how to make it work. Starters: $1 per meal, see http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com ; creative use of http://Zillow.com http://Zillow.com or http://Trulia.com http://Trulia.com can find undeveloped building lots for under $2000. (Naysayers, this subthread isn't for you.)

shubb 13y ago
I'm writing from the UK, where living on the road is hard due to legals and climate. But if I lived in a high rent area of the US, I'd definitely look into getting a nice RV. In a city, this would at first seem impractical. But if you cut back to a much smaller vehicle, there is generally safe free parking to be found at night. Especially if your friend has an apartment, but doesn't use the parking. Gym membership for showers, kitchen at work, maybe a games room. You really only need a box to live in most days. This would let you pull in high wages, living low and gathering savings, then retire to the country to bootstrap your amazing SaaS business. Oh fantasy. Back in reality, I currently rent a bedroom from a fairly rich family. Especially during the winter, I save a huge amount on bills. The only problem is the lack of private space, but temporarily that's fine.
- larsonf 13y ago
  Hey shubb, I've read your posts for a while; like the way you think. Let me buy you a pint next time I'm in London (in US right now, but there often enough). Thoughtful tech people in London good to find. an email that I made: specialemailforthisrightnow@gmail.com
  - shubb 13y ago
    Ha, why not. I'll send you an email.
rubidium 13y ago
It's easier to do if you're willing to live without a car and health insurance. I keep good track of what I spend, and live pretty frugally, so here's some info on "what's possible" (assuming a single person living in the midwest US). I eat for ~$90 a month (oatmeal, fruit, beans and rice, peanut butter and jelly, spaghetti, chicken once a week, ground beef once a week). I pay: -$200/month for rent and utilities (live in a house with 4 others guys in midwest collegetown). And it's a decent sized place with cable internet, so you could probably get cheaper (though likely not on the east or west coast). -$30/month for cell phone plan. -Computer was homebuilt from parts and is 4 years old. -$200/year for clothes/toiletries. That comes to about $11 a day. Now, my expenses or higher because I opt to have health insurance, a car, travel, and go out every now and then. It's the health insurance, living in high cost-of-living places, car, going out, and travel that makes your goal difficult.

kfk 13y ago

If you charge the costs of your pension (I challenge you can make even 5k when you are 80+ years old) and health on society, sure, you can live on that amount.

VLM 13y ago
That was also my first reaction to the title, "so I see they've met my grandmother". Prop tax on half a house and some maintenance is a couple hundred a month, and some food, that's about it. She obtained about 4,5,6 who knows how many times as much from pensions and from SS but she actually only spent perhaps $5K/yr on herself. Too old to drive safely, not into consumer electronics other than a top of the line TV and top of the line satellite subscription (only old people watch TV anymore), loved to cook / didn't like restaurant food / very picky about food, not into clothing fashions, what is someone like that supposed to spend money on for themselves, anyway? Mostly gave her money away to charities, family, etc.

netcan 13y ago

It's often useful to have someone exploring extremes. Philosophical extremes, lifestyle extremes, physical, etc. For example, I think reading Ayn Rand is useful even though I disagree with here on many points. I think many people feel like much of our modern wealth is "wealth." Long hours at Jobs we don't like. No free time. Dept. Constant financial worries. Social alienation. Hopefully they find some useful things that other people can use.

hrkristian 13y ago
The article makes no mention things like health insurance and other safety nets. What will he do when he grows too old to be autonomous? I'm all for the idea of going back to basics, advanced stages of anything usually comes with a lot of negative baggage, our western society included. However, living "intentionally poor" means you're distancing yourself from everything, you're essentially back to the Middle Ages, and your quality of life depends solely on your genetics and luck in life. He breaks his foot, and suddenly he has to come crawling back to the "system" he once was a slave of. A system he no longer deserves to be a part of because he's stopped contributing to it.
- tonyedgecombe 13y ago
  "A system he no longer deserves to be a part of because he's stopped contributing to it." It seems to me he is contributing in many ways, they just aren't financial.
- netcan 13y ago
  I'm not sure that living "intentionally poor" means anything in particular. The article gives two example: a guy in a hobbit hole and a girl in a cheap NY room. Both are using macs and making a little money online. Doesn't sound medieval to me. Anyway, the article isn't about a "mid sized country" deciding to live in a hobbit hole. It's about a few individuals. They're trying to find a satisfying way of living. This anger about not contributing to the system feels very off to me.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

pinaceae 13y ago

only rich and bored people want to be poor. this is like painting yourself black to prove you can live under racism.

ChikkaChiChi 13y ago
No, that's called blackface, racist.
sanoli 13y ago
In Brazil there's a saying: "Poor people like luxury. The ones who like poverty are intellectuals."
- oftenwrong 13y ago
  I would say "The ones who like poverty are not poor"
spurgu 13y ago
How about people who don't feel like locking themselves to a certain job and/or wage level, just to be able to afford and maintain the lifestyle mid+ income earners see as a necessity (when it most certainly isn't)? Freedom comes in many forms.

personlurking 13y ago

I've lived poor on a little more than $5000/yr for several years now, though it's due to living in developing nations and/or countries with hard-hit economies. I still want things but I fully recognize it's just a want and not a need. Would I live 'normally' if I made more money? Well, I've come to find that paying for experiences is more important than having status or things that represent it. Most of my current friends are not as poor as me but they aren't rich either. Though, I spent all of my teens with 'rich kids', for one reason or another, and they seemed to have no clue about how good they had/have it. If we all had to start from scratch, I'd survive while they wouldn't. When the basics aren't covered automatically, there's a large psychological toll (the scarcity trap) that affects every single decision made. I'd rather know the art of being frugal than be oblivious to it (and how much of the world lives)...but I must say, the scarcity trap can be hell to deal with.

Shivetya 13y ago

Living on 5000 is enough is simple enough when you start out with everything that is expensive already in your possession. I have seen people live frugally, none of the cases in this story are meaningful. I am more interested in the unintentional poor, because by calling these people intentional means its a lifestyle choice. Lifestyle choices let you stack the deck prior to taking the choice. Its the perfect choice of vapid selfish people.

bluedino 13y ago
$50/month for a phone, plus a MBA and iPad is an easy $1500, and that's buying used stuff.
- pilom 13y ago
  Its not like he has to buy the MBA or the iPad every year. Also cell phones in the US are way less than $50/month if you don't go with ATT, Verizon, Sprint, or T-mobile. I get Unlimited everything (with no data caps) for $20/month on Republic Wireless.

fennecfoxen 13y ago

> “I don’t believe in houses or mortgages. Who in their right mind would spend their lifetime paying for a building they never get to spend time in because they are always working?” > The intentional poor are “looking for something real that goes beyond commodity,” said Karen Halnon, a sociology professor at Pennsylvania State University and author of "Consumption of Inequality." See, the historical edition of "something real" and the mainstream reason to pay for the house is called "your children". I don't expect many of these people are raising any, so there you go.

lelele 13y ago
> See, the historical edition of "something real" and the mainstream reason to pay for the house is called "your children". Your children need you way more than a pretty room. If saving on accommodation lets you spend less hours in the office and more hours with them, they will be happier for sure. The amount of space paid for and wasted in average houses is mind-blowing. Pay for what you use, not what you think you need. That's the gist of the article.
codegeek 13y ago
Exactly. I bought a house right after my first kid was born (second on the way) and I would not trade it for anything else. Yes I am paying the mortgage+ taxes and what not but I know that my kids are getting the environment we want as a family to grow up. Yes you can always argue that kids can be raised in rented apartments, condos etc. but to each his own. I recently painted one of the rooms for the kid and loved doing it. Imagine dealing with landlords asking for permission to put a nail on the wall. Many more things like this. tl;dr: People buy houses not because they see it as investment in terms of money (well thats also there to an extent but besides the point in this context), they buy it to call it their home where they have the freedom to do whatever the heck they want.
- atwebb 13y ago
  As someone forced to rent with kids for the past several years (apparently contracting isn't a real job to banks), you got it exactly right. Floating around, without a defined base is really difficult and affects you more than you realize. Though you have to pay for upkeep on a house (and HOA/insurance/taxes) renting brings it's own issues (fees,deposits,moving expenses) and, in our area, rents are about 30-50% higher than a mortgage for a comparable house in a comparable neighborhood. Not to mention, the nice, stable neighborhoods don't have much rental action around here.

goshx 13y ago

[off-topic] I feel like I have been experiencing many dejavu's here lately. Doesn't HN have a detection for re-posts? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6544012 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6544012

sp332 13y ago
The repost detection is pretty fragile and often just doesn't work. It's up to the poster to make sure the story isn't a dup.

tehwalrus 13y ago

I'd love to try this sort of lifestyle, but I can't help thinking I'd be bored out of my mind after a few weeks (without power to run a computer - programming problems in the evening might be interesting enough.) I once worked minimum wage at Starbucks for a couple of weeks full time (gap between A-levels and starting uni.) I had worked there a day a week for about a year, and I enjoyed working there for that proportion of my time, alongside challenging-ish studies. But - when I hit the third or fourth day, the tiredness set in. Sweeping/mopping/hoovering a large store three evenings in a row, after being on your feet all day making coffee and smiling at people, is seriously hard work. And don't get me started on cleaning the loos. I am very courteous to people who work in retail. It's not quite doing odd jobs around the town, but it's certainly the order of magnitude of work required to live this kind of lifestyle. Also, does the $5,000 a year seriously cover a return flight to Hawaii?!

up_and_up 13y ago

I had friends that lived like kings in Santa Cruz CA for easily less than $500/year. They lived for free in hidden tents/camps above UCSC, ate/made free food with Food Not Bombs, biked everywhere around CA and generally just lived it up. There are other ways to exist and thrive in this world outside the grind.