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> Those of us who really need to just "get things done" might be better suited by a mature, well-documented framework, but does one actually exist? No. Framew

by Zelphyr 13y ago

> Those of us who really need to just "get things done" might be better suited by a mature, well-documented framework, but does one actually exist? No. Frameworks are all the same in that they are great at getting you to about 80% of what you need REALLY fast. The next 10% takes some investigation but its doable. But that last 10%. Its like pulling teeth. You're working for the framework rather than it working for you. In my experience, all of the time gains you realize from using a framework early on are lost (and then some) trying to get it to do that last 10% that you need. Ultimately I've found that using vanilla Javascript offers everything I need to just "get things done" and complete a project successfully. Sure, I might not be able to get something out the door in a day. But at the end of the project I've delivered clean, maintainable code on time. And anyone who knows Javascript will be able to read it. Now, lest you think I'm a complete framework hater; they have their place. They're great at prototyping, for example. But never again will I build an entire project on one. I have little interest in being a glorified glue stick, piecing framework code together. How boring. I should add that I make heavy use of libraries like jQuery and Underscore. They're libraries, not frameworks. Take what you need with them yet still reasonably lightweight. Frameworks are bloated, tightly-coupled, poorly documented monstrosities in my opinion.

erikpukinskis 13y ago
I think it depends on how good you are. If you're a great developer, with deep knowledge of patterns, a strong commitment to refactoring, with lots of experience such that you're aware of the pitfalls you are likely to befall, then you're probably right: frameworks will buy you little. I'm pretty good, but I'm apparently not good enough, because I find myself consistently learning things from frameworks. I certainly am familiar with the Last Ten Percent you're talking of. But I also know that for every 10% that I have to pull teeth to get, there are many many things that work well because the platform team did a great job and drew on a depth of experience and expertise that I just don't have yet. DHH built a lot of Ruby apps before he built Rails, and by using Rails I can draw on his experience. As a solo founder that's worth a lot to me. And even now, when I've largely moved on from Rails I still draw on things I learned from studying that framework. And the frameworks I use now are equal distillations of very deep experience. You're perhaps a more experienced developer than I am, or just better suited to the job.
- Zelphyr 13y ago
  You touch on one of the other benefits of a framework; they're a fairly decent way to learn. But, unfortunately, much of that is because you're learning what NOT to do. A much better way to learn is to go write your own framework. Then you're forced to encounter the pitfalls and overcome them through research, trial-and-error, and interacting with the community. But continuing to use a framework is just a crutch in my opinion. At some point not only are you not learning anything but, as I mentioned before, all you're really doing is gluing framework code/modules together. You're actively doing yourself a disservice and letting your skills atrophy by relying on such a crutch. One thing about frameworks that I find interesting is; how many were used to develop Unix? None. Because there weren't any back then. And now its in billions of devices worldwide. I did this myself. It was crap. Fun to write, and I learned a lot from it. But still, monolithic, poorly documented, tightly-coupled crap and even I don't use it anymore.
super-serial 13y ago
Finally someone said it. Even if I write more code by only using libraries and no frameworks (which is debatable), at least I'm happy while writing it. I do consider some frameworks to be exceptions though. Express is called a framework but it looks more like a library for HTTP handling to me. Most npm packages behave like libraries - maybe that's why I like using Node.js so much. Also CSS "frameworks" like Bootstrap aren't in the same league. They've never caused me the type of frustration I've had with frameworks like RoR or Angular. Bootstrap is actually a library of UI widgets. They can call it a "framework" but I don't consider it to be one.

by Zelphyr 13y ago

erikpukinskis 13y ago

I think it depends on how good you are. If you're a great developer, with deep knowledge of patterns, a strong commitment to refactoring, with lots of experience such that you're aware of the pitfalls you are likely to befall, then you're probably right: frameworks will buy you little. I'm pretty good, but I'm apparently not good enough, because I find myself consistently learning things from frameworks. I certainly am familiar with the Last Ten Percent you're talking of. But I also know that for every 10% that I have to pull teeth to get, there are many many things that work well because the platform team did a great job and drew on a depth of experience and expertise that I just don't have yet. DHH built a lot of Ruby apps before he built Rails, and by using Rails I can draw on his experience. As a solo founder that's worth a lot to me. And even now, when I've largely moved on from Rails I still draw on things I learned from studying that framework. And the frameworks I use now are equal distillations of very deep experience. You're perhaps a more experienced developer than I am, or just better suited to the job.

Zelphyr 13y ago
You touch on one of the other benefits of a framework; they're a fairly decent way to learn. But, unfortunately, much of that is because you're learning what NOT to do. A much better way to learn is to go write your own framework. Then you're forced to encounter the pitfalls and overcome them through research, trial-and-error, and interacting with the community. But continuing to use a framework is just a crutch in my opinion. At some point not only are you not learning anything but, as I mentioned before, all you're really doing is gluing framework code/modules together. You're actively doing yourself a disservice and letting your skills atrophy by relying on such a crutch. One thing about frameworks that I find interesting is; how many were used to develop Unix? None. Because there weren't any back then. And now its in billions of devices worldwide. I did this myself. It was crap. Fun to write, and I learned a lot from it. But still, monolithic, poorly documented, tightly-coupled crap and even I don't use it anymore.

super-serial 13y ago

Finally someone said it. Even if I write more code by only using libraries and no frameworks (which is debatable), at least I'm happy while writing it. I do consider some frameworks to be exceptions though. Express is called a framework but it looks more like a library for HTTP handling to me. Most npm packages behave like libraries - maybe that's why I like using Node.js so much. Also CSS "frameworks" like Bootstrap aren't in the same league. They've never caused me the type of frustration I've had with frameworks like RoR or Angular. Bootstrap is actually a library of UI widgets. They can call it a "framework" but I don't consider it to be one.