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I understand that Hacker News is mostly targeted towards the startup crowd, but asking _hackers_ to have a business model before they write anything is complete

by ginko 13y ago

I understand that Hacker News is mostly targeted towards the startup crowd, but asking _hackers_ to have a business model before they write anything is completely backwards to me. Hackers don't write code because they want to make lots of money. Hackers write code because they are hackers. Building a viable business on top of that code may be a nice side effect of this.

al1x 13y ago
That's kind of the point of this article though. He's pointing out the flaw in the "code first" approach. He started out that way and wound up wasting years of his life. The "hackers" of news.ycombinator.com are (or should be) business-minded hackers (it's kind of the point of ycombinator). This kind of reminder is always helpful.
ovi256 13y ago
A "business model" can mean a for-profit enterprise as well as an open source project solving a pain point and showcasing your skills. The questions customer development asks can be used for the open source project too, with great effect.
- xerophtye 13y ago
  yep! that's how good useful open-source code (especially APIs) are built! I mean dont u want people to actually USE what u took time and effort to write? You may not have written it for money, or to make a business, but you would want people using it. So when you code AFTER knowing what people need, the feeling is way more awesome! i mean think about it, u wanna make something really cool that no one uses? or something everyone agrees on is super cool, and would love to actually use? I actually spent nearly an year writing a rather powerful and challenging mathmatical reasoning engine (heck it can not only solve but LEARN mathematics!) but i had no users in mind. So i could never explain to people why anyone wud want to use it. and that didnt really feel that good
mildtrepidation 13y ago
This sentiment is a bit like saying "sailors don't sail because they have somewhere to go. Sailors sail because they want to sail." It may be true if you're on a lake or in a bay, know the area well, and your intention is to just go and flex your sailing muscles. To practice, enjoy, check out something you're aware of but haven't actually navigated, or something else that's similarly within easy reach. It loses its applicability when you consider that, no, some sailors actually do have destinations. And some trips are long or difficult enough that they do in fact require planning, specific goals, timelines, and all manner of other preparation. I'm sure it's not a perfect metaphor, but the point is that the artificial limitation of "hackers hack to hack" is short-sighted and fundamentally flawed. Some do, some don't, and I would say most are somewhere in between. But please don't make the mistake -- on behalf of others -- of defining the entire community in terms of your preconceptions about what hackers do or don't value or attempt in an absolute sense.
- gbog 13y ago
  Yes, comparison is flawed. Imagine Torvalds starting to work on git. Is he sailing to go somewhere? Certainly. Has he a full business plan with all the bs about customers? Certainly not. He sails because he is a sailor, and sailor are explorers too. (Not in real life, but in this comparison)
  - pencilcheck 13y ago
    However Linus built git for himself, not for others, therefore he doesn’t need to go through this because he will be the first customer once this product is finished and released. This article is aiming for entrepreneurs who are building a product for others because no where in the article did he infer any possibility that the product/service is something they want regardless of others.
    - greenyoda 13y ago
      "However Linus built git for himself, not for others..." No, Linus built git to address the needs of a large community of Linux kernel developers: Git development began after many developers of the Linux kernel chose to give up access to BitKeeper, a proprietary SCM system that had previously been used to maintain the project. The copyright holder of BitKeeper, Larry McVoy, had withdrawn free use of the product after he claimed that Andrew Tridgell had reverse-engineered the BitKeeper protocols. Torvalds wanted a distributed system that he could use like BitKeeper, but none of the available free systems met his needs, particularly in terms of performance. Torvalds took an example of an SCM system requiring thirty seconds to apply a patch and update all associated metadata, and noted that this would not scale to the needs of Linux kernel development, where syncing with fellow maintainers could require 250 such actions at a time. His goal was for patches to take three seconds.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_%28software%29#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_%28software%29#History
adlpz 13y ago
The word hacker has been twisted into oblivion. Just assume that any mention to 'hacker' in Hacker News has nothing to do with hacking, but with entrepreneurship.
- hermanhermitage 13y ago
  Heh. Or perhaps hacking out some web based product with no meaningful programming involved but exploiting a customer base/segment...
- joshdance 13y ago
  Yes. It seems the term hacker = entrepreneur with some type of technical knowledge. Which is ok.
- sebinsua 13y ago
  It has and it hasn't. There's always been a yin-yang between hacker and hustler here. And I am glad this hasn't been destroyed as there is merit in the frame. We hack and hustle customers and software. We validate the market on both ends: business and product.
jmngomes 13y ago
Also, writing enough code to build a minimal demo is often necessary to validate technical viability and to ease customer development, as having something to show helps kickstart the conversation and stimulates feedback.
AznHisoka 13y ago
I write code so I can make money... so that in the future, I can write code without worrying about making money. if that makes sense. Because right now, the vast majority of hackers spend 90% of their living hours writing code that doesn't satisfy them intellectually.
- xerophtye 13y ago
  Makes perfect sense to me. Though every once in a while i run into coding job that i actually find satisfying. Like recently made a research project involving a multiple AI agent envoronment
sukaka 13y ago
everyone should do what they enjoy, then money will follow. there are niche business areas. i.e. creating apps useful to you, creating an algorithmic trading bot to work the market
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
brownBananas 13y ago
No, I don't think it's backwards thinking to me, but I do agree with you. People loving hacking because it's a fun thing to do. And most of the times, building a business isn't even the point of it all. The problem I have with this article and your comment, is the generalization of the term "hackers". Is anyone that codes in their free time, a "hacker"? Is a software engineer that works full time at a company, a "hacker"? What about UI designers that write CSS? What about business guys who throw something together in HTML and jQuery? Are they hackers as well? Different people have different goals for what they are building or hacking on. I really don't understand how we are still throwing such vague terms around like we all fit in this one category of people, and we all want to achieve the same things.
bluedino 13y ago
Exactly - this is advice for entrepreneurial-focused 'hackers'
- beat 13y ago
  The problem is that they want to hack, rather than doing the scary business stuff. You won't have this problem if you're not a hacker by nature.
etler 13y ago
It depends on your goal. If you're just writing code for yourself, then yes, because you are your own customer at that point. If other people happen to share your sentiment, awesome. If you want to start a startup because you think you have a good idea that other people will want, then do the market research first and make sure people actually want it. If it's something you're doing for yourself, then you probably don't need monetary motivation to do it, even if you're the only one using it.

by ginko 13y ago

al1x 13y ago

That's kind of the point of this article though. He's pointing out the flaw in the "code first" approach. He started out that way and wound up wasting years of his life. The "hackers" of news.ycombinator.com are (or should be) business-minded hackers (it's kind of the point of ycombinator). This kind of reminder is always helpful.

ovi256 13y ago

A "business model" can mean a for-profit enterprise as well as an open source project solving a pain point and showcasing your skills. The questions customer development asks can be used for the open source project too, with great effect.

xerophtye 13y ago
yep! that's how good useful open-source code (especially APIs) are built! I mean dont u want people to actually USE what u took time and effort to write? You may not have written it for money, or to make a business, but you would want people using it. So when you code AFTER knowing what people need, the feeling is way more awesome! i mean think about it, u wanna make something really cool that no one uses? or something everyone agrees on is super cool, and would love to actually use? I actually spent nearly an year writing a rather powerful and challenging mathmatical reasoning engine (heck it can not only solve but LEARN mathematics!) but i had no users in mind. So i could never explain to people why anyone wud want to use it. and that didnt really feel that good

mildtrepidation 13y ago

This sentiment is a bit like saying "sailors don't sail because they have somewhere to go. Sailors sail because they want to sail." It may be true if you're on a lake or in a bay, know the area well, and your intention is to just go and flex your sailing muscles. To practice, enjoy, check out something you're aware of but haven't actually navigated, or something else that's similarly within easy reach. It loses its applicability when you consider that, no, some sailors actually do have destinations. And some trips are long or difficult enough that they do in fact require planning, specific goals, timelines, and all manner of other preparation. I'm sure it's not a perfect metaphor, but the point is that the artificial limitation of "hackers hack to hack" is short-sighted and fundamentally flawed. Some do, some don't, and I would say most are somewhere in between. But please don't make the mistake -- on behalf of others -- of defining the entire community in terms of your preconceptions about what hackers do or don't value or attempt in an absolute sense.

gbog 13y ago
Yes, comparison is flawed. Imagine Torvalds starting to work on git. Is he sailing to go somewhere? Certainly. Has he a full business plan with all the bs about customers? Certainly not. He sails because he is a sailor, and sailor are explorers too. (Not in real life, but in this comparison)
- pencilcheck 13y ago
  However Linus built git for himself, not for others, therefore he doesn’t need to go through this because he will be the first customer once this product is finished and released. This article is aiming for entrepreneurs who are building a product for others because no where in the article did he infer any possibility that the product/service is something they want regardless of others.
  - greenyoda 13y ago
    "However Linus built git for himself, not for others..." No, Linus built git to address the needs of a large community of Linux kernel developers: Git development began after many developers of the Linux kernel chose to give up access to BitKeeper, a proprietary SCM system that had previously been used to maintain the project. The copyright holder of BitKeeper, Larry McVoy, had withdrawn free use of the product after he claimed that Andrew Tridgell had reverse-engineered the BitKeeper protocols. Torvalds wanted a distributed system that he could use like BitKeeper, but none of the available free systems met his needs, particularly in terms of performance. Torvalds took an example of an SCM system requiring thirty seconds to apply a patch and update all associated metadata, and noted that this would not scale to the needs of Linux kernel development, where syncing with fellow maintainers could require 250 such actions at a time. His goal was for patches to take three seconds.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_%28software%29#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_%28software%29#History

adlpz 13y ago

The word hacker has been twisted into oblivion. Just assume that any mention to 'hacker' in Hacker News has nothing to do with hacking, but with entrepreneurship.

hermanhermitage 13y ago
Heh. Or perhaps hacking out some web based product with no meaningful programming involved but exploiting a customer base/segment...
joshdance 13y ago
Yes. It seems the term hacker = entrepreneur with some type of technical knowledge. Which is ok.
sebinsua 13y ago
It has and it hasn't. There's always been a yin-yang between hacker and hustler here. And I am glad this hasn't been destroyed as there is merit in the frame. We hack and hustle customers and software. We validate the market on both ends: business and product.

jmngomes 13y ago

Also, writing enough code to build a minimal demo is often necessary to validate technical viability and to ease customer development, as having something to show helps kickstart the conversation and stimulates feedback.

AznHisoka 13y ago

I write code so I can make money... so that in the future, I can write code without worrying about making money. if that makes sense. Because right now, the vast majority of hackers spend 90% of their living hours writing code that doesn't satisfy them intellectually.

xerophtye 13y ago
Makes perfect sense to me. Though every once in a while i run into coding job that i actually find satisfying. Like recently made a research project involving a multiple AI agent envoronment

sukaka 13y ago

everyone should do what they enjoy, then money will follow. there are niche business areas. i.e. creating apps useful to you, creating an algorithmic trading bot to work the market

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

brownBananas 13y ago

No, I don't think it's backwards thinking to me, but I do agree with you. People loving hacking because it's a fun thing to do. And most of the times, building a business isn't even the point of it all. The problem I have with this article and your comment, is the generalization of the term "hackers". Is anyone that codes in their free time, a "hacker"? Is a software engineer that works full time at a company, a "hacker"? What about UI designers that write CSS? What about business guys who throw something together in HTML and jQuery? Are they hackers as well? Different people have different goals for what they are building or hacking on. I really don't understand how we are still throwing such vague terms around like we all fit in this one category of people, and we all want to achieve the same things.

bluedino 13y ago

Exactly - this is advice for entrepreneurial-focused 'hackers'

beat 13y ago
The problem is that they want to hack, rather than doing the scary business stuff. You won't have this problem if you're not a hacker by nature.

etler 13y ago

It depends on your goal. If you're just writing code for yourself, then yes, because you are your own customer at that point. If other people happen to share your sentiment, awesome. If you want to start a startup because you think you have a good idea that other people will want, then do the market research first and make sure people actually want it. If it's something you're doing for yourself, then you probably don't need monetary motivation to do it, even if you're the only one using it.