4 ms·

All self-inflicted wounds. Argentinians could have a stable currency and a thriving, functional economy - there's nothing structural that's stopping them. But t

by bedhead 13y ago

All self-inflicted wounds. Argentinians could have a stable currency and a thriving, functional economy - there's nothing structural that's stopping them. But they choose not to, and have been making this choice for they last 100 years or so. It's a true pity.

jafaku 13y ago
That's like saying Americans could stop the wars.
dasil003 13y ago
It's self-inflicted in the same way that a mugger stealing your wallet at gunpoint is self-inflicted. After all, you are both citizens of the same country.
- bedhead 13y ago
  Argentina, for years, has chosen an economic policy something akin to a semi-functional alcoholic. I'm not quite sure what about their economic ideologies are somehow forced upon them despite decade after decade of failure.
  - dasil003 13y ago
    You don't understand corruption then. High inflation and a low official exchange rate that no one can actually exchange at without insider connections are a way for those with control of the government and currency printing presses to slowly but steadily siphon the wealth of the masses directly to themselves.
    - bedhead 13y ago
      You're getting the cause and effect mixed up. Is it probably disproportionately worse in Argentina compared to the US? Yeah. But it's not innate in Argentinians. Corruption, generally speaking, is a function of something else, usually something that's inherently unfair or unjust. Argentina's economic policies created these incentives to drive people increasingly towards corruption, not the other way around.
      - dasil003 13y ago
        Where did I say that the state of affairs is innate to Argentina? In any case, that's a red herring. You can't simply state that the economic policies unilaterally led to corruption as a self-evident truth without some supporting evidence. Clearly officials who have a history of corruption are more likely to institute new policies that benefit themselves as well. Economies are not so simple that causality is easily stated in an absolute manner, especially in so flippant a manner as "corruption […] is a function […] of something inherently unfair". That's probably the most hand-wavy statement about such a grand topic that I've ever read.
wslh 13y ago
No, the problem is structural: bad routes, no security, no mobile infrastructure, no energy (I am not talking about potential energy), bad education, bad transport of goods between cities. And I am not talking about corruption yet... you can bribe anybody in a direct way with witnesses around. You can say that Argentina has all the ingredients to be a first world country but it is just a hope to be at that point. For example, since Argentinian security forces don't work as expected, a shopping center has extra security personnel and on each shop there is another layer of security guards.
- wslh 13y ago
  I would love to know who is downvoting a comment based on facts.
  - meerita 13y ago
    Maybe some pro-gov guys. They do it everywhere.
    - EliRivers 13y ago
      I keep expecting to see one of them bring up the Falkland Islands. That's where these threads usually go on the Economist's site.
- fennecfoxen 13y ago
  The self-infliction is electing politicians like Kirchner who don't try to spend time and effort improving their infrastructure and stability and attracting investment to build new things. Instead, they prefer to borrow money to deliver handouts to the populace, then when they can't repay the money, default on their debts and take over the local operations of foreign firms. (This is before we even get into the suppression of the media and other overtures of authoritarianism...) Not that the poorest of Argentinians aren't in great need of some form of aid like those handouts, but sacrificing the argentinian nation's economic future works out to be a BAD PLAN in the end.
  - 13y ago
gaius 13y ago
You know, 100 years ago, there was a saying "as rich as an Argentine", like we might say "as rich as a sheik" today. By any reasonable means, they should be enjoying wealth on a par with any First World country. Corruption killed it stone dead, and judging by their current government, the people never learn. We went to war to save them from Fascism (and, umm, to liberate our islands), they had a chance to start over with a clean slate, but that has been squandered now.
- GFischer 13y ago
  There's a popular saying: "nobody can understand why Japan is so rich, while Argentina is so poor"

by bedhead 13y ago

jafaku 13y ago

That's like saying Americans could stop the wars.

dasil003 13y ago

It's self-inflicted in the same way that a mugger stealing your wallet at gunpoint is self-inflicted. After all, you are both citizens of the same country.

bedhead 13y ago
Argentina, for years, has chosen an economic policy something akin to a semi-functional alcoholic. I'm not quite sure what about their economic ideologies are somehow forced upon them despite decade after decade of failure.
- dasil003 13y ago
  You don't understand corruption then. High inflation and a low official exchange rate that no one can actually exchange at without insider connections are a way for those with control of the government and currency printing presses to slowly but steadily siphon the wealth of the masses directly to themselves.
  - bedhead 13y ago
    You're getting the cause and effect mixed up. Is it probably disproportionately worse in Argentina compared to the US? Yeah. But it's not innate in Argentinians. Corruption, generally speaking, is a function of something else, usually something that's inherently unfair or unjust. Argentina's economic policies created these incentives to drive people increasingly towards corruption, not the other way around.
    - dasil003 13y ago
      Where did I say that the state of affairs is innate to Argentina? In any case, that's a red herring. You can't simply state that the economic policies unilaterally led to corruption as a self-evident truth without some supporting evidence. Clearly officials who have a history of corruption are more likely to institute new policies that benefit themselves as well. Economies are not so simple that causality is easily stated in an absolute manner, especially in so flippant a manner as "corruption […] is a function […] of something inherently unfair". That's probably the most hand-wavy statement about such a grand topic that I've ever read.

wslh 13y ago

No, the problem is structural: bad routes, no security, no mobile infrastructure, no energy (I am not talking about potential energy), bad education, bad transport of goods between cities. And I am not talking about corruption yet... you can bribe anybody in a direct way with witnesses around. You can say that Argentina has all the ingredients to be a first world country but it is just a hope to be at that point. For example, since Argentinian security forces don't work as expected, a shopping center has extra security personnel and on each shop there is another layer of security guards.

wslh 13y ago
I would love to know who is downvoting a comment based on facts.
- meerita 13y ago
  Maybe some pro-gov guys. They do it everywhere.
  - EliRivers 13y ago
    I keep expecting to see one of them bring up the Falkland Islands. That's where these threads usually go on the Economist's site.
fennecfoxen 13y ago
The self-infliction is electing politicians like Kirchner who don't try to spend time and effort improving their infrastructure and stability and attracting investment to build new things. Instead, they prefer to borrow money to deliver handouts to the populace, then when they can't repay the money, default on their debts and take over the local operations of foreign firms. (This is before we even get into the suppression of the media and other overtures of authoritarianism...) Not that the poorest of Argentinians aren't in great need of some form of aid like those handouts, but sacrificing the argentinian nation's economic future works out to be a BAD PLAN in the end.
- 13y ago

gaius 13y ago

You know, 100 years ago, there was a saying "as rich as an Argentine", like we might say "as rich as a sheik" today. By any reasonable means, they should be enjoying wealth on a par with any First World country. Corruption killed it stone dead, and judging by their current government, the people never learn. We went to war to save them from Fascism (and, umm, to liberate our islands), they had a chance to start over with a clean slate, but that has been squandered now.

GFischer 13y ago
There's a popular saying: "nobody can understand why Japan is so rich, while Argentina is so poor"