12 ms·

3 month design, 3 month build, 3 month test Keep it simple. That was the philosophy. Don't bother reading the article, I just summed up the only info that was

3 month design, 3 month build, 3 month test Keep it simple. That was the philosophy. Don't bother reading the article, I just summed up the only info that wasn't just there to take up space. Disappointing that this was light on any real details like who the contractor was, or if it was done by state employees. What the integration story was? Technology? Staffing count? Budget? You know, all those things which would speak to 'How' Kentucky built the site.

keithwarren 13y ago
Just looked it up, running ASP.NET MVC 4. Not surprising, tech concentration is pretty regional and this part of the country is very heavily Microsoft focused.
- hga 13y ago
  A further testament to the quality of their effort, in that it's according to you a good match to their local technical base, we're pretty sure it scales up to the level needed for the state (intuitively and per the evidence), costs of licenses is I'm sure noise for the effort, etc. etc. Not necessarily to my taste either (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6627673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6627673), but if it gets the job done, who really cares?
  - keithwarren 13y ago
    Why do people still say stuff like 'cost of licenses'; the cost of licensing Windows Server for a system even at large scale (think StackOverflow) is so small it barely qualifies mention. Unless you are talking about licensing SQL Server per processor, the cost of licenses is unimportant.
    - hga 13y ago
      Well, seeing as how I like persistent data, as I'm sure this site does, SQL Server licenses would be a factor. But I was more thinking of the shoestring startup shooting initially for ramen profitability, where every unnecessary, can't instantly scale dollar spent is one too many. This is an effort with a serious budget, where today's back end costs of all sorts are I'm pretty a very small part of it all, probably even bandwidth.
      - heartbreak 13y ago
        You can write ASP.NET applications against any database. I write mine against Postgres because I love the db and it costs me $0 per processor.
        smtddr 13y ago
        So you think they paid for a Microsoft OS Server, but then decided to use an open-source DB? I bet is that they're Microsoft-stack from top to bottom.
        keithwarren 13y ago
        This is exactly the problem, people think Microsoft shops have an allergy to open source? You ever stop to think that maybe people are just using the best tools they can for the job?
        smtddr 13y ago
        > This is exactly the problem, people think Microsoft shops have an allergy to open source? Yes. That's exactly what I think. So, what I'm about to say isn't in any kind of defense. I'm just going to document my personal bias for all to read and hope to be enlightened: I don't think anyone really chooses to run a Microsoft Server, other than Exchange-Server[1]. I think people are forced into it because of at least one of the following: 1) Their corporation demands it, 2)They don't have the skills to use Linux or OSX, or 3) That individual may have the skills but the other people on the team that need to be able to help out, do not have the skills. Anecdotal: I once interviewed in a place that had Microsoft servers and SQL Servers, I asked them if they'd consider using Linux. They said "Oh, we're a Microsoft-Gold-Partner, so no Linux here." This was in 2007 for a small-to-mid company somewhere in San Francisco. So IFF I'm correct about the above, then anytime someone chooses a Microsoft server(not counting anything related to Exchange)... I assume the whole shop is on MS-stack. I might be horribly wrong; I'm posting this to have other HN people correct my terrible thought-process. 1. Because Exchange really, truly, works and it's hard to get everyone to agree on a tech to handle emails+meetings. Exchange seems to be the most widely supported choice.
- axaxs 13y ago
  Couldn't agree more. As someone from the area, I have trouble finding anyone who knows anything about linux. Interview questions about basic tools/tasks, such as ssh, grep, ps, vim, etc. are met with blank stares. But they all (claim to) know c#. And on the other hand, I don't see many jobs at all with requirements outside of a MS stack, so we're stuck in a bit of a chicken-egg problem here.
mbesto 13y ago
3 months to test a website. That's crazy!! Why didn't they build correct the first time?! </sarcasm> This is why I really hope they use the government's failure as a means to educate the lay person on how difficult it is to build a technology system and equally how important testing it is: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6586499 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6586499
- mhurron 13y ago
  No, it just cements the idea that the Government can't do anything.
  - hga 13y ago
    Why not apply the federalism principle. This comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6622746 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6622746 by protomyth on another Obamacare topic points out "The writers of the law wanted a top-down centralized approach and that isn't how the US Constitution or US States are structured." and why we shouldn't be surprised by it's abject top level failure. ADDED: to the initial responses to this: no, not even close. E.g. explain where the Federal government has a role in this beyond the FDA's standards establish what can be sold, which are in part an economy of scale. E.g. the Naval Observatory and NIST each maintain independent ultra-precise time bases for the nation, which strikes me as just right. At the national level, Daylight Savings Time is promulgated, but states like Arizona (minus the big NE Indian Reservation) and Hawaii where it's not a good idea don't observe it. But most things should be left to the "50 Petri dishes" of the states (or groups of them, e.g. the Multi-State Lottery Association http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-State_Lottery_Association http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-State_Lottery_Association ). Romneycare? Sure, why not try it? Obamacare? I think you know my answer to that. And please don't make replies that don't factor in the Federal government's interference in this starting with WWII.
    - dragonwriter 13y ago
      > Why not apply the federalism principle. You mean, set national standards and leave the implementation to the states within those standards, with feds only stepping in if the states refuse or fail? That's exactly what PPACA does for most things -- including the exchanges.
keithwarren 13y ago
The sad part, this is the 'best' and I see a home page that even with a simple design pattern and a relatively easy technology stack - missed some pretty basic best practices that are virtually free from a technical effort perspective. 30 different HTTP calls on the home page, no bundling or minification, 4 404 errors, no CDN usage...but it works, I guess nothing else really matters if you meet that metric.
- yeukhon 13y ago
  If 30 different static element calls that's fine. Your browser will cache them. A few API calls are okay too.
- bilbo0s 13y ago
  All of that stuff can be fixed later. This is the right way to do things. Even if they took 2 years and had elite agencies working on it... there would be a list of little complaints purists would have. The point here is... theirs works... because they kept it simple.
  - niels_olson 13y ago
    I think part of the lesson is to start smaller.
    - semerda 13y ago
      Or have a capable team. No feat is impossible with the right team and leadership. I know easier said than done but the fish always rots from the head.
- hga 13y ago
  Exactly. Make it work, then make it work more efficiently, cleanly, prettily, etc. etc. http://builtwith.com/healthcare.gov http://builtwith.com/healthcare.gov says the Federal site uses Akamai ... fat lot of good it does them efficiently propagating gubble....
- rbanffy 13y ago
barake 13y ago
Part of it was contracted to "CGI Group of Canada" - the same company that created the Federal exchange[1]. Word around town is that Doe Anderson[2] helped out, though that might have just been for marketing materials. The state government also has a pretty good group of developers on hand (lost my best intern to the KY Department of Transportation). [1] http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20131021/PRIME07/310210061/ http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20131021/PRIME07/3102... [2] http://www.doeanderson.com/ http://www.doeanderson.com/
clarkm 13y ago
Another comment pointed out that a lot of the js [1] has blocks like: > DEVELOPED BY SURESH PALDIA A quick search tells me that someone with that name works for Deloitte, so if I had guess, that's who KY contracted. [1] https://kyenroll.ky.gov/Scripts/HBECommonUtility.js https://kyenroll.ky.gov/Scripts/HBECommonUtility.js
monsterix 13y ago
I know few developers who worked on Kentucky's Kynect. It's apparently been executed by many contractors like hcentive, CGI etc. IMO, it would be inappropriate to single out state employees or the contractors and appreciate only one of them. Great execution or bad one is mostly an outcome of how capable and driven the executive team is.
huherto 13y ago
"Keep it simple" Sounds easy. But it requires a person with deep understanding of software projects and with real political weight within the project to keep creeping requirements at bay.
semerda 13y ago
Take a look at the site's JS files and the proud developers stamping their names all over it. Google their name and you will see the dev work was outsourced offshore. It feels like there was no one overseeing engineering quality across any of these government sites. Quality doesn't have to be QA but best practice standards in both software design and testing. Few unit & automation tests and peer reviews would have gone a long way to releasing decent software.

keithwarren 13y ago

Just looked it up, running ASP.NET MVC 4. Not surprising, tech concentration is pretty regional and this part of the country is very heavily Microsoft focused.

hga 13y ago
A further testament to the quality of their effort, in that it's according to you a good match to their local technical base, we're pretty sure it scales up to the level needed for the state (intuitively and per the evidence), costs of licenses is I'm sure noise for the effort, etc. etc. Not necessarily to my taste either (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6627673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6627673), but if it gets the job done, who really cares?
- keithwarren 13y ago
  Why do people still say stuff like 'cost of licenses'; the cost of licensing Windows Server for a system even at large scale (think StackOverflow) is so small it barely qualifies mention. Unless you are talking about licensing SQL Server per processor, the cost of licenses is unimportant.
  - hga 13y ago
    Well, seeing as how I like persistent data, as I'm sure this site does, SQL Server licenses would be a factor. But I was more thinking of the shoestring startup shooting initially for ramen profitability, where every unnecessary, can't instantly scale dollar spent is one too many. This is an effort with a serious budget, where today's back end costs of all sorts are I'm pretty a very small part of it all, probably even bandwidth.
    - heartbreak 13y ago
      You can write ASP.NET applications against any database. I write mine against Postgres because I love the db and it costs me $0 per processor.
      - smtddr 13y ago
        So you think they paid for a Microsoft OS Server, but then decided to use an open-source DB? I bet is that they're Microsoft-stack from top to bottom.
        keithwarren 13y ago
        This is exactly the problem, people think Microsoft shops have an allergy to open source? You ever stop to think that maybe people are just using the best tools they can for the job?
        smtddr 13y ago
        > This is exactly the problem, people think Microsoft shops have an allergy to open source? Yes. That's exactly what I think. So, what I'm about to say isn't in any kind of defense. I'm just going to document my personal bias for all to read and hope to be enlightened: I don't think anyone really chooses to run a Microsoft Server, other than Exchange-Server[1]. I think people are forced into it because of at least one of the following: 1) Their corporation demands it, 2)They don't have the skills to use Linux or OSX, or 3) That individual may have the skills but the other people on the team that need to be able to help out, do not have the skills. Anecdotal: I once interviewed in a place that had Microsoft servers and SQL Servers, I asked them if they'd consider using Linux. They said "Oh, we're a Microsoft-Gold-Partner, so no Linux here." This was in 2007 for a small-to-mid company somewhere in San Francisco. So IFF I'm correct about the above, then anytime someone chooses a Microsoft server(not counting anything related to Exchange)... I assume the whole shop is on MS-stack. I might be horribly wrong; I'm posting this to have other HN people correct my terrible thought-process. 1. Because Exchange really, truly, works and it's hard to get everyone to agree on a tech to handle emails+meetings. Exchange seems to be the most widely supported choice.
axaxs 13y ago
Couldn't agree more. As someone from the area, I have trouble finding anyone who knows anything about linux. Interview questions about basic tools/tasks, such as ssh, grep, ps, vim, etc. are met with blank stares. But they all (claim to) know c#. And on the other hand, I don't see many jobs at all with requirements outside of a MS stack, so we're stuck in a bit of a chicken-egg problem here.

mbesto 13y ago

3 months to test a website. That's crazy!! Why didn't they build correct the first time?! </sarcasm> This is why I really hope they use the government's failure as a means to educate the lay person on how difficult it is to build a technology system and equally how important testing it is: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6586499 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6586499

mhurron 13y ago
No, it just cements the idea that the Government can't do anything.
- hga 13y ago
  Why not apply the federalism principle. This comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6622746 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6622746 by protomyth on another Obamacare topic points out "The writers of the law wanted a top-down centralized approach and that isn't how the US Constitution or US States are structured." and why we shouldn't be surprised by it's abject top level failure. ADDED: to the initial responses to this: no, not even close. E.g. explain where the Federal government has a role in this beyond the FDA's standards establish what can be sold, which are in part an economy of scale. E.g. the Naval Observatory and NIST each maintain independent ultra-precise time bases for the nation, which strikes me as just right. At the national level, Daylight Savings Time is promulgated, but states like Arizona (minus the big NE Indian Reservation) and Hawaii where it's not a good idea don't observe it. But most things should be left to the "50 Petri dishes" of the states (or groups of them, e.g. the Multi-State Lottery Association http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-State_Lottery_Association http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-State_Lottery_Association ). Romneycare? Sure, why not try it? Obamacare? I think you know my answer to that. And please don't make replies that don't factor in the Federal government's interference in this starting with WWII.
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    > Why not apply the federalism principle. You mean, set national standards and leave the implementation to the states within those standards, with feds only stepping in if the states refuse or fail? That's exactly what PPACA does for most things -- including the exchanges.

keithwarren 13y ago

The sad part, this is the 'best' and I see a home page that even with a simple design pattern and a relatively easy technology stack - missed some pretty basic best practices that are virtually free from a technical effort perspective. 30 different HTTP calls on the home page, no bundling or minification, 4 404 errors, no CDN usage...but it works, I guess nothing else really matters if you meet that metric.

yeukhon 13y ago
If 30 different static element calls that's fine. Your browser will cache them. A few API calls are okay too.
bilbo0s 13y ago
All of that stuff can be fixed later. This is the right way to do things. Even if they took 2 years and had elite agencies working on it... there would be a list of little complaints purists would have. The point here is... theirs works... because they kept it simple.
- niels_olson 13y ago
  I think part of the lesson is to start smaller.
  - semerda 13y ago
    Or have a capable team. No feat is impossible with the right team and leadership. I know easier said than done but the fish always rots from the head.
hga 13y ago
Exactly. Make it work, then make it work more efficiently, cleanly, prettily, etc. etc. http://builtwith.com/healthcare.gov http://builtwith.com/healthcare.gov says the Federal site uses Akamai ... fat lot of good it does them efficiently propagating gubble....
rbanffy 13y ago

barake 13y ago

Part of it was contracted to "CGI Group of Canada" - the same company that created the Federal exchange[1]. Word around town is that Doe Anderson[2] helped out, though that might have just been for marketing materials. The state government also has a pretty good group of developers on hand (lost my best intern to the KY Department of Transportation). [1] http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20131021/PRIME07/310210061/ http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20131021/PRIME07/3102... [2] http://www.doeanderson.com/ http://www.doeanderson.com/

clarkm 13y ago

Another comment pointed out that a lot of the js [1] has blocks like: > DEVELOPED BY SURESH PALDIA A quick search tells me that someone with that name works for Deloitte, so if I had guess, that's who KY contracted. [1] https://kyenroll.ky.gov/Scripts/HBECommonUtility.js https://kyenroll.ky.gov/Scripts/HBECommonUtility.js

monsterix 13y ago

I know few developers who worked on Kentucky's Kynect. It's apparently been executed by many contractors like hcentive, CGI etc. IMO, it would be inappropriate to single out state employees or the contractors and appreciate only one of them. Great execution or bad one is mostly an outcome of how capable and driven the executive team is.

huherto 13y ago

"Keep it simple" Sounds easy. But it requires a person with deep understanding of software projects and with real political weight within the project to keep creeping requirements at bay.

semerda 13y ago

Take a look at the site's JS files and the proud developers stamping their names all over it. Google their name and you will see the dev work was outsourced offshore. It feels like there was no one overseeing engineering quality across any of these government sites. Quality doesn't have to be QA but best practice standards in both software design and testing. Few unit & automation tests and peer reviews would have gone a long way to releasing decent software.