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In 2009, the FDA tested some ecigs from China and found traces of DEG. This was used to raise fear, yet the amount of DEG was within the FDA's own tolerances as

In 2009, the FDA tested some ecigs from China and found traces of DEG. This was used to raise fear, yet the amount of DEG was within the FDA's own tolerances as "safe". You probably use myriad products from China which aren't highly scrutinized and aren't up in arms about the safety of those. I have an ecig company and the ingredients in my liquid are 100% American sourced. I have never worked for a tobacco company. Ecigs helped me quit smoking and my motivation is to help people quit and improve their lives. There is no reason to be concerned about secondhand vapor. This is a recent study for you to read: http://publichealth.drexel.edu/SiteData/docs/ms08/f90349264250e603/ms08.pdf http://publichealth.drexel.edu/SiteData/docs/ms08/f903492642... We can compare the secondhand exposure from ecigs to something like grilling a steak and grilling clearly has a greater risk to give you cancer.

300bps 13y ago
I am not surprised at the level of spin coming from someone whose livelihood comes in part from e-cigarettes. You dismiss the FDA study (summarized here http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/PublicHealthFocus/ucm173146.htm http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/PublicHealthFocus/ucm173146.ht...) by saying it was "ecigs from China". But the study says it was two leading e-cig makers. I have an ecig company and the ingredients in my liquid are 100% American sourced That's kind of like saying, "My product is 100% natural." It might be accurate but ignores the fact that things like arsenic and bacteria and all kind of other harmful things are natural. There is no reason to be concerned about secondhand vapor. I'm going to trust the FDA over you.
- praxeologist 13y ago
  "Leading ecig makers" are fraudsters in my opinion. They are selling whitelabel Chinese junk at huge margins. They make false claims about their sub-1ml liquid in pre-filled cartridges being equivalent to 2 packs of cigs. They are marketing hacks and aren't actually innovating, unlike my company. The FDA tested the liquid composition of these Chinese cartridges and yes, one was supposedly contaminated. I get my propylene glycol from Dow, not a random Chinese source. Just because one company cut corners and sold a contaminated product shouldn't incriminate those who do assure quality. You're conveniently ignoring that the DEG found is within the FDA's own guidelines as safe anyhow. It sounds scary to tell people that DEG and PG are ingredients in antifreeze and ignore that PG is also in those Mio water shots people use. >That's kind of like saying, "My product is 100% natural." Strawman. I just said I source my ingredients from America and huge, trusted companies like Dow. I said nothing about being 100% natural. By the way, propylene glycol is highly antibacterial and it was considered to pump it into the air of hospitals during the 50's. It is also a common diluent in things like asthma inhalers. Yes, I am dismissing these bullet points from the FDA because they are crafted to evoke fear. Here's another example: "Tobacco-specific impurities suspected of being harmful to humans—anabasine, myosmine, and β-nicotyrine—were detected in a majority of the samples tested." These "are detected" in nicotine patches and gum, actually at a higher level based on intake than ecigs. The amount of these in all cases is so small to not raise any concern. >I'm going to trust the FDA over you. I bet you trust the NSA too. I follow all the research and am capable of having an honest discussion of the facts but clearly you are not. edit: There's a lot about the FDA statement here too - http://casaa.org/uploads/8_Biggest_Electronic_Cigarette_Myths.pdf http://casaa.org/uploads/8_Biggest_Electronic_Cigarette_Myth...
  - 300bps 13y ago
    With all due respect, you are clearly biased. As your Twitter profile states, you are a "Flavorist, tobacco chemist & design junkie. Trying to build an online marketplace for ecig vendors." Your arguments are illogical. You incorrectly use terms like Strawman Argument to respond to a simple illustration. I never said you claimed your products were all natural, just that what you did say is just as meaningless as if you did. You say you only use chemicals from DOW in an attempt to imply they are safe to ingest. But this conveniently ignores the fact that DOW was the primary manufacturer of both Napalm and Agent Orange. Just because they are a large chemical company and their reagents are pure doesn't mean the people using their products are using them correctly. Please don't take the lack of further reply as anything more than it's not worth the time.
    - praxeologist 13y ago
      Your response was exactly what "attacking a strawman" is. I was talking about how I use American sourced propylene glycol versus Chinese PG as used in the samples where DEG was found. You responded to a statement I never made, that something is "100% natural". You are clearly an intellectually dishonest person so, sure, see yourself out of the conversation. You can call me biased but you have failed to to make any sort of substantive argument on the science. I have critcisms of the safety on ecigs and some false claims people make too. The real angle for safety you want to go at, if anything, is the addition of volatile diketones in creamy/buttery flavorings (diacetyl, acetoin, acetyl propionyl, etc.) Some of these small businesses selling liquid claim they use FDA-approved flavorings. The FDA doesn't approve flavorings. It is sourced out to a group called FEMA (no, not that FEMA): http://www.femaflavor.org/gras http://www.femaflavor.org/gras The FDA largely accepts the opinion of FEMA for what is GRAS (generally recognized as safe). Flavorings are only GRAS at varying levels for the intended usage (baking, alcoholic beverages etc., none of which is inhalation). Diacetyl is not safe to inhale and has been known to cause bronchiolitis obliterans AKA "popcorn lung" both in workers at flavoring plants and even cases like a man who ate multiple bags of microwave popcorn per day. I'm worried that these smaller eliquid makers haven't taken the warnings on this seriously enough and in a few years the first cases of this will appear. It can be a long process for popcorn lung to develop but the harm is irreversible. It is only this class of flavoring chemicals which raise concern, so I am sure to avoid them.

300bps 13y ago

I am not surprised at the level of spin coming from someone whose livelihood comes in part from e-cigarettes. You dismiss the FDA study (summarized here http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/PublicHealthFocus/ucm173146.htm http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/PublicHealthFocus/ucm173146.ht...) by saying it was "ecigs from China". But the study says it was two leading e-cig makers. I have an ecig company and the ingredients in my liquid are 100% American sourced That's kind of like saying, "My product is 100% natural." It might be accurate but ignores the fact that things like arsenic and bacteria and all kind of other harmful things are natural. There is no reason to be concerned about secondhand vapor. I'm going to trust the FDA over you.

praxeologist 13y ago
"Leading ecig makers" are fraudsters in my opinion. They are selling whitelabel Chinese junk at huge margins. They make false claims about their sub-1ml liquid in pre-filled cartridges being equivalent to 2 packs of cigs. They are marketing hacks and aren't actually innovating, unlike my company. The FDA tested the liquid composition of these Chinese cartridges and yes, one was supposedly contaminated. I get my propylene glycol from Dow, not a random Chinese source. Just because one company cut corners and sold a contaminated product shouldn't incriminate those who do assure quality. You're conveniently ignoring that the DEG found is within the FDA's own guidelines as safe anyhow. It sounds scary to tell people that DEG and PG are ingredients in antifreeze and ignore that PG is also in those Mio water shots people use. >That's kind of like saying, "My product is 100% natural." Strawman. I just said I source my ingredients from America and huge, trusted companies like Dow. I said nothing about being 100% natural. By the way, propylene glycol is highly antibacterial and it was considered to pump it into the air of hospitals during the 50's. It is also a common diluent in things like asthma inhalers. Yes, I am dismissing these bullet points from the FDA because they are crafted to evoke fear. Here's another example: "Tobacco-specific impurities suspected of being harmful to humans—anabasine, myosmine, and β-nicotyrine—were detected in a majority of the samples tested." These "are detected" in nicotine patches and gum, actually at a higher level based on intake than ecigs. The amount of these in all cases is so small to not raise any concern. >I'm going to trust the FDA over you. I bet you trust the NSA too. I follow all the research and am capable of having an honest discussion of the facts but clearly you are not. edit: There's a lot about the FDA statement here too - http://casaa.org/uploads/8_Biggest_Electronic_Cigarette_Myths.pdf http://casaa.org/uploads/8_Biggest_Electronic_Cigarette_Myth...
- 300bps 13y ago
  With all due respect, you are clearly biased. As your Twitter profile states, you are a "Flavorist, tobacco chemist & design junkie. Trying to build an online marketplace for ecig vendors." Your arguments are illogical. You incorrectly use terms like Strawman Argument to respond to a simple illustration. I never said you claimed your products were all natural, just that what you did say is just as meaningless as if you did. You say you only use chemicals from DOW in an attempt to imply they are safe to ingest. But this conveniently ignores the fact that DOW was the primary manufacturer of both Napalm and Agent Orange. Just because they are a large chemical company and their reagents are pure doesn't mean the people using their products are using them correctly. Please don't take the lack of further reply as anything more than it's not worth the time.
  - praxeologist 13y ago
    Your response was exactly what "attacking a strawman" is. I was talking about how I use American sourced propylene glycol versus Chinese PG as used in the samples where DEG was found. You responded to a statement I never made, that something is "100% natural". You are clearly an intellectually dishonest person so, sure, see yourself out of the conversation. You can call me biased but you have failed to to make any sort of substantive argument on the science. I have critcisms of the safety on ecigs and some false claims people make too. The real angle for safety you want to go at, if anything, is the addition of volatile diketones in creamy/buttery flavorings (diacetyl, acetoin, acetyl propionyl, etc.) Some of these small businesses selling liquid claim they use FDA-approved flavorings. The FDA doesn't approve flavorings. It is sourced out to a group called FEMA (no, not that FEMA): http://www.femaflavor.org/gras http://www.femaflavor.org/gras The FDA largely accepts the opinion of FEMA for what is GRAS (generally recognized as safe). Flavorings are only GRAS at varying levels for the intended usage (baking, alcoholic beverages etc., none of which is inhalation). Diacetyl is not safe to inhale and has been known to cause bronchiolitis obliterans AKA "popcorn lung" both in workers at flavoring plants and even cases like a man who ate multiple bags of microwave popcorn per day. I'm worried that these smaller eliquid makers haven't taken the warnings on this seriously enough and in a few years the first cases of this will appear. It can be a long process for popcorn lung to develop but the harm is irreversible. It is only this class of flavoring chemicals which raise concern, so I am sure to avoid them.