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What is wrong with us in this sick, perverted, twisted, dying and rotting industry? If you encounter these problems, start applying to a new position. Don't dea

What is wrong with us in this sick, perverted, twisted, dying and rotting industry? If you encounter these problems, start applying to a new position. Don't deal with management; don't "educate" them. Don't fix the organization you've tricked yourself into joining. Just polish your resume and leave. It seems like we're an industry that defines Stockholm Syndrome.

ninetax 13y ago
Wrong thread?
- drunkpotato 13y ago
  Hah, no, but I see I didn't provide enough context. I was referring to the subsections in "Personal Skills", "Team Skills" and "Serving Your Team". I also freely admit I am jaded by poor management in the past that has not responded to the kinds of advice given here.
  - mbrock 13y ago
    "Go home if you have a contagious disease. You should go home if you have suicidal thoughts. [...] You should send someone home if they show serious mental malfunctioning or signs of mental illness beyond mild depression. [...] Don't use cocaine or amphetamines to combat fatigue." :/
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
MaulingMonkey 13y ago
Take care not to throw the baby out with the bathwater: fixing the problem can be easier than finding the perfect pink elephant and praying it stays that way. Of course, do take care to throw out the bathwater.
fit2rule 13y ago
Philosophically, programmers can do anyones job, as long as that person is willing to describe it in a way that it can be abstracted properly. Programmers are unique in the world, in a philosophical sense, in that the skills and techniques of programming can be applied to any human subject, and seriously productive results can be attained. Computers are an "infinity machine" in that any single subject that a human being can describe, using words, can be in some way supported by computerization. So if you think an organization is broken, programming can often-times fix it. Good programming, which encodes the domain-specific knowledge of the organization, can be applied to any particular role in human existence - including that of management. In that sense, programmers are able to operate exterior to any organization - and must, in fact, if they wish to deliver a productive result - and apply their skills to that organization in order to improve it. Programmers who have worked professionally in any industry have an intuitive understanding of this fact, and its strengths. So I would put it to you that its not Stockholm Syndrome you're observing, but rather this simple fact: Programmers > Managers. (Well, Programmers who deliver working systems, that is..)
- mseebach 13y ago
  Wow, that's .. incredible hubris. There are good programmers and there are bad programmers. There are good managers and there are bad managers. The good variants of either are very valuable and can deliver huge value to very diverse businesses. The bad ones, not so much. Since the computer-based automation of everything is a reasonably recent phenonomen, there have been more low-hanging fruit to be picked by bad programmers. Management is a much more mature field, so having "Teach yourself Management in 24 hours"-level competence is much less likely to have a positive yield. What you're describing is just general intelligence and analytical thought. It's harder and rarer than most people think, and both managers and programmers to be really good at their jobs. But just as there are less demanding management positions in the world, there is an emergent class of programmers who are perfectly capable of building and maintaining simple CRUD apps to spec, but wouldn't need to know half of what is in this guide to be effective.
- OvidNaso 13y ago
  Almost every human is capable of speech. We have a built in interpreter that can recognize and produce an infinite amount of understandable sentences. By your logic. Everyone who can speak is Shakespeare.
Kiro 13y ago
Sick, perverted, twisted, dying and rotting industry? Wow, you can't have had many jobs. Our industry is like heaven in comparison to the really rotten and twisted ones.
- UK-AL 13y ago
  Depends where you live. In Silicon Valley programmers are treated well as human beings. In others, programmers are treated as bottom of barrel employees, like short order cooks to implement somebody elses vision, and their input not valued. I've seen quite a few programmers have breakdowns, and have to leave the industry. Far higher rate than other industries. I think it's because programmers see themselves as creatives, but managers in some companies seem them as builders of somebody else's vision.
joshyeager 13y ago
I read this article completely differently. It's not saying that you should try to fix a dysfunctional organization. It's telling you how to succeed in whatever organization you decide to stay in. And it is telling you how to maintain and improve the health of an already healthy organization. I have had the privilege to work mostly in happy, stable companies, and all the team and organization suggestions in this article have been helpful to me. The "how to get promoted", too. I'm now in a position to do even more to make my team healthy and my company successful. And I love it. Edit: we're not in the Valley. We're in the DC area, which generally has fairly poor working conditions and long hours for programmers. It helps that we're a product company and not a bodyshop.

ninetax 13y ago

Wrong thread?

drunkpotato 13y ago
Hah, no, but I see I didn't provide enough context. I was referring to the subsections in "Personal Skills", "Team Skills" and "Serving Your Team". I also freely admit I am jaded by poor management in the past that has not responded to the kinds of advice given here.
- mbrock 13y ago
  "Go home if you have a contagious disease. You should go home if you have suicidal thoughts. [...] You should send someone home if they show serious mental malfunctioning or signs of mental illness beyond mild depression. [...] Don't use cocaine or amphetamines to combat fatigue." :/

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

MaulingMonkey 13y ago

Take care not to throw the baby out with the bathwater: fixing the problem can be easier than finding the perfect pink elephant and praying it stays that way. Of course, do take care to throw out the bathwater.

fit2rule 13y ago

Philosophically, programmers can do anyones job, as long as that person is willing to describe it in a way that it can be abstracted properly. Programmers are unique in the world, in a philosophical sense, in that the skills and techniques of programming can be applied to any human subject, and seriously productive results can be attained. Computers are an "infinity machine" in that any single subject that a human being can describe, using words, can be in some way supported by computerization. So if you think an organization is broken, programming can often-times fix it. Good programming, which encodes the domain-specific knowledge of the organization, can be applied to any particular role in human existence - including that of management. In that sense, programmers are able to operate exterior to any organization - and must, in fact, if they wish to deliver a productive result - and apply their skills to that organization in order to improve it. Programmers who have worked professionally in any industry have an intuitive understanding of this fact, and its strengths. So I would put it to you that its not Stockholm Syndrome you're observing, but rather this simple fact: Programmers > Managers. (Well, Programmers who deliver working systems, that is..)

mseebach 13y ago
Wow, that's .. incredible hubris. There are good programmers and there are bad programmers. There are good managers and there are bad managers. The good variants of either are very valuable and can deliver huge value to very diverse businesses. The bad ones, not so much. Since the computer-based automation of everything is a reasonably recent phenonomen, there have been more low-hanging fruit to be picked by bad programmers. Management is a much more mature field, so having "Teach yourself Management in 24 hours"-level competence is much less likely to have a positive yield. What you're describing is just general intelligence and analytical thought. It's harder and rarer than most people think, and both managers and programmers to be really good at their jobs. But just as there are less demanding management positions in the world, there is an emergent class of programmers who are perfectly capable of building and maintaining simple CRUD apps to spec, but wouldn't need to know half of what is in this guide to be effective.
OvidNaso 13y ago
Almost every human is capable of speech. We have a built in interpreter that can recognize and produce an infinite amount of understandable sentences. By your logic. Everyone who can speak is Shakespeare.

Kiro 13y ago

Sick, perverted, twisted, dying and rotting industry? Wow, you can't have had many jobs. Our industry is like heaven in comparison to the really rotten and twisted ones.

UK-AL 13y ago
Depends where you live. In Silicon Valley programmers are treated well as human beings. In others, programmers are treated as bottom of barrel employees, like short order cooks to implement somebody elses vision, and their input not valued. I've seen quite a few programmers have breakdowns, and have to leave the industry. Far higher rate than other industries. I think it's because programmers see themselves as creatives, but managers in some companies seem them as builders of somebody else's vision.

joshyeager 13y ago

I read this article completely differently. It's not saying that you should try to fix a dysfunctional organization. It's telling you how to succeed in whatever organization you decide to stay in. And it is telling you how to maintain and improve the health of an already healthy organization. I have had the privilege to work mostly in happy, stable companies, and all the team and organization suggestions in this article have been helpful to me. The "how to get promoted", too. I'm now in a position to do even more to make my team healthy and my company successful. And I love it. Edit: we're not in the Valley. We're in the DC area, which generally has fairly poor working conditions and long hours for programmers. It helps that we're a product company and not a bodyshop.