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An informative article, which is worth reading, but the conclusions seem bizarre and lacking in logic. Why should perhaps the best education system in the worl

by ronaldx 13y ago

An informative article, which is worth reading, but the conclusions seem bizarre and lacking in logic. Why should perhaps the best education system in the world pull back into a period of decompression? South Korea have created a generation of talent which is internationally competitive and fuelling a strong economy. Human capital is now one of the country's best assets. Even if you could identify an obvious cause, you certainly shouldn't seek to mess that up. Why should the chaebol, who monopolise industry talent, be required to do the same in other industries?

keithpeter 13y ago
My reading of the article suggested to me that "perhaps the best education system in the world" is focussing on the wrong things. The pressures of an ageing workforce and the demands for recognition elsewhere in the economy will force a correction at some point I suppose.
- ronaldx 13y ago
  Measurably the first or second best education system in the world (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11939566 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11939566 ; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20498356 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20498356). You are apparently describing a correction in the sense that the quality of education will be reduced. I would be happy for you to clarify otherwise, but why should any country seek that out? Education is perhaps the primary reason for the continuing strength of South Korea's economy. What reason is there for South Korea to go in a different educational direction than it has, consistently and successfully, since its formation? As you note, the article indicates that there's an ageing population due to low birth rate due to the expense of education. I find that an extremely long stretch and I've never heard this link made regarding a Western country. Why does this logic apply to South Korea if it doesn't apply in the UK?
  - yeukhon 13y ago
    I do agree with you that the article has not provided any evidence suggesting the correlation between low birth rate and the expense of education. As an Asian I think the correlation is a little hard to believe for some people but this correlation can be true. The ever-growing economy brings destruction to peaceful Korean society and living expense is going up so much that good salary (and thus having an admirable job) is necessary. If you are not a Samsung engineer you can face social pressure (from your family, your gf/bf family and from your friends) according to the article. This is probably because Koreans are very proud of their technology. As a result from the pressure, I suppose a lot of Korean are avoiding marriage and birth early so they can concentrate on their career growth. These are just my theory and I'd like to see a good research on this.
  - neop 13y ago
    Education in South Korea is often cited as the reason for their economic growth, but that doesn't quite match up, as discussed in this article: http://www.spiked-online.com/Printable/0000000CA640.htm http://www.spiked-online.com/Printable/0000000CA640.htm There's also this article which talks about the downsides of their focus on education (for example, 40% of graduates are unemployed four months after leaving university): http://www.economist.com/node/21541713 http://www.economist.com/node/21541713 My personal take is that their economic growth and rise in test scores are both the result of the way their culture is set up. South Koreans tend to be extremely competitive and live under constant pressure to outperform their peers. For students this means that they study harder and for longer periods of time to do well in tests which makes them get some of the best scores around the world. For working people this means working an unhealthy amount of hours (South Korea often ranks at the top of the charts when it comes to measuring working hours) which is the most likely explanation for their economic growth. Both of these facts also contribute to South Korea having one of the highest suicide rates in the world. Furthermore, I think there is a key point when it comes to education. South Korea is doing great at tests because that's what they're training for. Their education system centers around doing well in tests, not necessarily about learning the right concepts. There is a very big focus on memorization and they care more about doing well on a test than on actually learning. It is not uncommon for them to focus on memorizing previous exam questions to get the right answer rather than actually understanding the concepts to be able to correctly answer questions.
  - kijin 13y ago
    The benchmarks you cited measure scholastic ability. It is measured by such metrics as test results and graduation rates, as the second link says. The benchmarks have little implication for the general quality of life for students, graduates, and educators. Especially since getting into a top college doesn't guarantee success anymore. Meanwhile, South Korea has the hightest suicide rate among OECD countries [1], and suicide is also the leading cause of death among people aged 15-29 [2]. Teenagers killing themselves to escape from academic pressure are so common they don't even make the news anymore. South Korean students might have the highest grades, but neither students nor educators seem to be even remotely happy about what they've got at the moment. We're talking about a country where competition for standardized tests is so great that people pay thousands of dollars for leaked SAT tests [3]. I'm talking about the American SAT, not the Korean equivalent. Competition for the Korean SAT (suneung) gets even more serious. In the past, when some foreign leader cited Korea's academic achievements in a public speech, Koreans felt immensely proud. Nowadays, Obama mentions Korea all the time when he talks about education policy and we're like "Err, whatever." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_South_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_South_Korea [2] http://www.voicesofyouth.org/en/posts/rising-suicide-rates-in-south-korea http://www.voicesofyouth.org/en/posts/rising-suicide-rates-i... [3] http://blogs.wsj.com/korearealtime/2013/05/28/group-of-south-koreans-barred-from-sat/ http://blogs.wsj.com/korearealtime/2013/05/28/group-of-south...
  - jrs99 13y ago
    Look at this mofo's awesome education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chung_Ju-yung http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chung_Ju-yung
  - lotu 13y ago
    You mention measuring of education quality such as test scores. Interestingly Google recently found GPA and test scores to be uncorrelated to the success of their hires. (http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/20/google-executive-gpa-test-scores-worthless-for-hiring/ http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/20/google-executive-gpa-test-... ) The value of standardized tests as predictors of student prerformance in general is questionable just look at the critisim of No Child Left Behind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act#Criticisms_of_standardized_testing_under_NCLB http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act#Critic...). Others have pointed South Korea's high suicide rate. If you eduction results in you making a lot of money but being unhappy with your life would call that success?
  - keithpeter 13y ago
    'Quality' is not a scalar variable with continuous properties, where you can say the second derivative equals zero! An education system has a range of effects in society. The OA seemed to describe a system that is optimising one very narrowly focused outcome that was useful in the past but may not be useful in the future. We shall see!

by ronaldx 13y ago

keithpeter 13y ago

My reading of the article suggested to me that "perhaps the best education system in the world" is focussing on the wrong things. The pressures of an ageing workforce and the demands for recognition elsewhere in the economy will force a correction at some point I suppose.

ronaldx 13y ago
Measurably the first or second best education system in the world (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11939566 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11939566 ; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20498356 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20498356). You are apparently describing a correction in the sense that the quality of education will be reduced. I would be happy for you to clarify otherwise, but why should any country seek that out? Education is perhaps the primary reason for the continuing strength of South Korea's economy. What reason is there for South Korea to go in a different educational direction than it has, consistently and successfully, since its formation? As you note, the article indicates that there's an ageing population due to low birth rate due to the expense of education. I find that an extremely long stretch and I've never heard this link made regarding a Western country. Why does this logic apply to South Korea if it doesn't apply in the UK?
- yeukhon 13y ago
  I do agree with you that the article has not provided any evidence suggesting the correlation between low birth rate and the expense of education. As an Asian I think the correlation is a little hard to believe for some people but this correlation can be true. The ever-growing economy brings destruction to peaceful Korean society and living expense is going up so much that good salary (and thus having an admirable job) is necessary. If you are not a Samsung engineer you can face social pressure (from your family, your gf/bf family and from your friends) according to the article. This is probably because Koreans are very proud of their technology. As a result from the pressure, I suppose a lot of Korean are avoiding marriage and birth early so they can concentrate on their career growth. These are just my theory and I'd like to see a good research on this.
- neop 13y ago
  Education in South Korea is often cited as the reason for their economic growth, but that doesn't quite match up, as discussed in this article: http://www.spiked-online.com/Printable/0000000CA640.htm http://www.spiked-online.com/Printable/0000000CA640.htm There's also this article which talks about the downsides of their focus on education (for example, 40% of graduates are unemployed four months after leaving university): http://www.economist.com/node/21541713 http://www.economist.com/node/21541713 My personal take is that their economic growth and rise in test scores are both the result of the way their culture is set up. South Koreans tend to be extremely competitive and live under constant pressure to outperform their peers. For students this means that they study harder and for longer periods of time to do well in tests which makes them get some of the best scores around the world. For working people this means working an unhealthy amount of hours (South Korea often ranks at the top of the charts when it comes to measuring working hours) which is the most likely explanation for their economic growth. Both of these facts also contribute to South Korea having one of the highest suicide rates in the world. Furthermore, I think there is a key point when it comes to education. South Korea is doing great at tests because that's what they're training for. Their education system centers around doing well in tests, not necessarily about learning the right concepts. There is a very big focus on memorization and they care more about doing well on a test than on actually learning. It is not uncommon for them to focus on memorizing previous exam questions to get the right answer rather than actually understanding the concepts to be able to correctly answer questions.
- kijin 13y ago
  The benchmarks you cited measure scholastic ability. It is measured by such metrics as test results and graduation rates, as the second link says. The benchmarks have little implication for the general quality of life for students, graduates, and educators. Especially since getting into a top college doesn't guarantee success anymore. Meanwhile, South Korea has the hightest suicide rate among OECD countries [1], and suicide is also the leading cause of death among people aged 15-29 [2]. Teenagers killing themselves to escape from academic pressure are so common they don't even make the news anymore. South Korean students might have the highest grades, but neither students nor educators seem to be even remotely happy about what they've got at the moment. We're talking about a country where competition for standardized tests is so great that people pay thousands of dollars for leaked SAT tests [3]. I'm talking about the American SAT, not the Korean equivalent. Competition for the Korean SAT (suneung) gets even more serious. In the past, when some foreign leader cited Korea's academic achievements in a public speech, Koreans felt immensely proud. Nowadays, Obama mentions Korea all the time when he talks about education policy and we're like "Err, whatever." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_South_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_South_Korea [2] http://www.voicesofyouth.org/en/posts/rising-suicide-rates-in-south-korea http://www.voicesofyouth.org/en/posts/rising-suicide-rates-i... [3] http://blogs.wsj.com/korearealtime/2013/05/28/group-of-south-koreans-barred-from-sat/ http://blogs.wsj.com/korearealtime/2013/05/28/group-of-south...
- jrs99 13y ago
  Look at this mofo's awesome education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chung_Ju-yung http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chung_Ju-yung
- lotu 13y ago
  You mention measuring of education quality such as test scores. Interestingly Google recently found GPA and test scores to be uncorrelated to the success of their hires. (http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/20/google-executive-gpa-test-scores-worthless-for-hiring/ http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/20/google-executive-gpa-test-... ) The value of standardized tests as predictors of student prerformance in general is questionable just look at the critisim of No Child Left Behind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act#Criticisms_of_standardized_testing_under_NCLB http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act#Critic...). Others have pointed South Korea's high suicide rate. If you eduction results in you making a lot of money but being unhappy with your life would call that success?
- keithpeter 13y ago
  'Quality' is not a scalar variable with continuous properties, where you can say the second derivative equals zero! An education system has a range of effects in society. The OA seemed to describe a system that is optimising one very narrowly focused outcome that was useful in the past but may not be useful in the future. We shall see!