5 ms·

I'd be interested to see how it made progress somewhere like Sicily (Naples is meant to be even more exciting to drive in but I haven't been there) or Thailand

I'd be interested to see how it made progress somewhere like Sicily (Naples is meant to be even more exciting to drive in but I haven't been there) or Thailand or India. [Note that I haven't visited Thailand for about 20 years, Sicily for 10 years and India ever so perceptions may be out of date or incorrect based on media/TV coverage for the India case.]

mojuba 13y ago
It's an interesting problem that exposes the fundamental difference between humans and algorithms: While some humans may be able to adopt to driving in Sicily or Thailand after the U.S., algorithms will never be able to do that. Unless, of course, specifically designed for driving in the U.S., Sicily and Thailand. (Or Russia for that matter, where driving is barely subject to any formalization.) Humans can learn and adapt, it's in our nature, but an algorithm is just a reflection of some narrow aspect of what we, humans, have learned. Change a few external variables and your algorithm fails miserably. I'm sorry, but somehow I don't believe in the future of self-driving cars, just like I don't believe in algorithms that would do image or voice recognition as well as we do.
- pauletienney 13y ago
  I agree but it might work if a vast majority of cars are automated ones. I can imagine a transition with "smartcars" : you drive with help and advice from your car.
  - josephlord 13y ago
    Yes but going through a city in Southern Italy how often is it going to say something other than STOP! If you don't assume that other drivers are going to change course and avoid you won't make much progress. The skill and alertness of the drivers in Sciliy were much greater than in the UK and the US but they had to be as those were relied on more than rules and systems. I also wonder about what human driven cars, motorbikes and bikes might start to do once they know and can identify that there are nearly uncrashable and will reliably take avoiding action - will they learn that they can just pull out and let the computers avoid them?
- habitue 13y ago
  I don't understand, what law of nature do you think there is that prevents algorithms from being able to emulate human intelligence? What magic sauce is there in the human brain that means it is in principle not replicable by computers? What do you think an algorithm is?
  - mojuba 13y ago
    No law of nature prevents algorithms from being able to learn like we do, except (1) I don't think Google's (or BMW's or Volvo's - whatever) algorithms are even trying to do that, and (2) algorithms that learn like humans haven't been created yet.
    - habitue 13y ago
      Ah, ok. I of course agree with you about the narrow case of Google's current self driving car initiative. It's likely they don't yet have the capability to adapt to the varied conditions a human could, and won't for some time. I suppose I was thrown off by your phrasing "fundamental difference between humans and algorithms" and "algorithms will never be able to do that" and "I don't believe in algorithms that would do image or voice recognition as well as we do". In fact, it seemed to me the entire point of your comment was to take the specific limitations of Google's current algorithm, and use it as an example of a general principle that algorithms are fundamentally limited in ways humans are not. If that wasn't the point of your original comment, what was?
      - mojuba 13y ago
        I think I'm still technically correct in that no algorithm can imitate humans, because no such algorithm exists yet. I should have said "humans and existing algorithms" probably. Google's approach to the problem has nothing to do with the (nonexistent) "A.I." as media likes to present it, it's just incredibly complex software that's trying its best to tackle the problem of navigating the roads, recognizing signs, other vehicles, etc. I can imagine it's an enormous effort that doesn't guarantee success. See "Siri, Call Me An Ambulance" meme as an example of a comparable effort ;)
    - 13y ago
- dinkumthinkum 13y ago
  I don't want to be rude but I don't think you know very much about self-driving cars. They are much more advanced than you think. Also you talk Thailand, I guess you mean the free-for-all situation ... Well, humans would adjust their behavior to the reality of self driving cars but in reality, these cars are much better at these situations than you think. You greatly underestimate the state of the technology even in its current form. We're talking the possibility of reducing 95% of accidents and fatalities. The sensor perception and trajectory calculation is much better than what humans can do. Driving is not about solving natural language riddles. You don't need "strong AI."
  - mojuba 13y ago
    I don't blindly believe in what Google is saying about self-driving cars. I do blindly believe in what this artcile is saying though: http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/520431/driverless-cars-are-further-away-than-you-think/ http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/520431/driverl... (a recent HN link, by the way)
    - dinkumthinkum 13y ago
      Oh I don't blindly believe what Google says either. Google is hardly the only one in this game. There many analysts in this field thinking the same thing. This is already going to affect toll roads being built in the next few years regarding risk propositions. The risk proposition will change. Go and talk to people at the Transpirtation Research Board next year. This is not just Google starry eyes but very serious.
- simonebrunozzi 13y ago
  "algorithms will never be able to do that" -> You seem to know very little about machine learning and AI.
bane 13y ago
I was in Palermo not all that long ago (2009) and I did wonder how self-drivers could ever navigate the cluster there. In my trips to Seoul, I could see them doing okay on the main roads, but once you get off of those things get really tight and irregular very quick. Heck if a self driving car can get through some of the old parts of Boston and Philly I think they'd have a chance. Hell, if they can navigate D.C. with all the crazy turns that change depending on the hour of the day they definitely have a chance.
- VBprogrammer 13y ago
  The single biggest problem for autonomous cars is that they have to cope with rules and systems designed for idiot humans. If you exclude that driving is simply a problem of finding a reasonably continuous plane in roughly the direction you want to go.
- dinkumthinkum 13y ago
  Definitely, check out the progress. This is no big deal really at this point. As another person pointed out, the biggest issue us humans.

mojuba 13y ago

It's an interesting problem that exposes the fundamental difference between humans and algorithms: While some humans may be able to adopt to driving in Sicily or Thailand after the U.S., algorithms will never be able to do that. Unless, of course, specifically designed for driving in the U.S., Sicily and Thailand. (Or Russia for that matter, where driving is barely subject to any formalization.) Humans can learn and adapt, it's in our nature, but an algorithm is just a reflection of some narrow aspect of what we, humans, have learned. Change a few external variables and your algorithm fails miserably. I'm sorry, but somehow I don't believe in the future of self-driving cars, just like I don't believe in algorithms that would do image or voice recognition as well as we do.

pauletienney 13y ago
I agree but it might work if a vast majority of cars are automated ones. I can imagine a transition with "smartcars" : you drive with help and advice from your car.
- josephlord 13y ago
  Yes but going through a city in Southern Italy how often is it going to say something other than STOP! If you don't assume that other drivers are going to change course and avoid you won't make much progress. The skill and alertness of the drivers in Sciliy were much greater than in the UK and the US but they had to be as those were relied on more than rules and systems. I also wonder about what human driven cars, motorbikes and bikes might start to do once they know and can identify that there are nearly uncrashable and will reliably take avoiding action - will they learn that they can just pull out and let the computers avoid them?
habitue 13y ago
I don't understand, what law of nature do you think there is that prevents algorithms from being able to emulate human intelligence? What magic sauce is there in the human brain that means it is in principle not replicable by computers? What do you think an algorithm is?
- mojuba 13y ago
  No law of nature prevents algorithms from being able to learn like we do, except (1) I don't think Google's (or BMW's or Volvo's - whatever) algorithms are even trying to do that, and (2) algorithms that learn like humans haven't been created yet.
  - habitue 13y ago
    Ah, ok. I of course agree with you about the narrow case of Google's current self driving car initiative. It's likely they don't yet have the capability to adapt to the varied conditions a human could, and won't for some time. I suppose I was thrown off by your phrasing "fundamental difference between humans and algorithms" and "algorithms will never be able to do that" and "I don't believe in algorithms that would do image or voice recognition as well as we do". In fact, it seemed to me the entire point of your comment was to take the specific limitations of Google's current algorithm, and use it as an example of a general principle that algorithms are fundamentally limited in ways humans are not. If that wasn't the point of your original comment, what was?
    - mojuba 13y ago
      I think I'm still technically correct in that no algorithm can imitate humans, because no such algorithm exists yet. I should have said "humans and existing algorithms" probably. Google's approach to the problem has nothing to do with the (nonexistent) "A.I." as media likes to present it, it's just incredibly complex software that's trying its best to tackle the problem of navigating the roads, recognizing signs, other vehicles, etc. I can imagine it's an enormous effort that doesn't guarantee success. See "Siri, Call Me An Ambulance" meme as an example of a comparable effort ;)
  - 13y ago
dinkumthinkum 13y ago
I don't want to be rude but I don't think you know very much about self-driving cars. They are much more advanced than you think. Also you talk Thailand, I guess you mean the free-for-all situation ... Well, humans would adjust their behavior to the reality of self driving cars but in reality, these cars are much better at these situations than you think. You greatly underestimate the state of the technology even in its current form. We're talking the possibility of reducing 95% of accidents and fatalities. The sensor perception and trajectory calculation is much better than what humans can do. Driving is not about solving natural language riddles. You don't need "strong AI."
- mojuba 13y ago
  I don't blindly believe in what Google is saying about self-driving cars. I do blindly believe in what this artcile is saying though: http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/520431/driverless-cars-are-further-away-than-you-think/ http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/520431/driverl... (a recent HN link, by the way)
  - dinkumthinkum 13y ago
    Oh I don't blindly believe what Google says either. Google is hardly the only one in this game. There many analysts in this field thinking the same thing. This is already going to affect toll roads being built in the next few years regarding risk propositions. The risk proposition will change. Go and talk to people at the Transpirtation Research Board next year. This is not just Google starry eyes but very serious.
simonebrunozzi 13y ago
"algorithms will never be able to do that" -> You seem to know very little about machine learning and AI.

bane 13y ago

I was in Palermo not all that long ago (2009) and I did wonder how self-drivers could ever navigate the cluster there. In my trips to Seoul, I could see them doing okay on the main roads, but once you get off of those things get really tight and irregular very quick. Heck if a self driving car can get through some of the old parts of Boston and Philly I think they'd have a chance. Hell, if they can navigate D.C. with all the crazy turns that change depending on the hour of the day they definitely have a chance.

VBprogrammer 13y ago
The single biggest problem for autonomous cars is that they have to cope with rules and systems designed for idiot humans. If you exclude that driving is simply a problem of finding a reasonably continuous plane in roughly the direction you want to go.
dinkumthinkum 13y ago
Definitely, check out the progress. This is no big deal really at this point. As another person pointed out, the biggest issue us humans.