5 ms·

I wasn't thinking about race; now I am. I believe minority focused groups, such as this, perpetuate racial discrimination. Can't we all just be one big group of

• dethstar 13y ago
  Trying to join the masses of white males have often resulted in failure, should those black women that are trying to learn something wait until they might be accepted instead of starting their own safe spaces, just to please your idea of "one big group of humans"?
  • stephp 13y ago
    This is the problem exactly. As a woman, I never felt that I was welcomed and struggled to "belong" among the typical coders/programmers. There are too many contributing factors to even begin to list here, but I've spoken to enough other women about their feelings regarding tech and the tech space to know they were never individual to me. But then I never felt quite right about chick groups either, if only because it isn't the REAL tech scene. It's just another subculture with its own idiosyncrasies. You can stay there as long as you want, and still be intimidated by the larger tech space where all the big stuff is happening, thus making no substantial dent in anything. So I do believe the problem they're trying to address is a real and important one; this way of dealing with it just doesn't seem ideal to me.
• tinco 13y ago
  No one cares if you are thinking of race, because obviously it is not about you. It's easy to not think about racism when racism isn't an issue in your environment. It's not as if now that you're exposed to racism, that you will perpetuate it, right?
  • Karunamon 13y ago
    Jeez, talk about unhelpful and condescending.
    • sp332 13y ago
      Condescending maybe but GP has a point. If racism is already a big deal, ignoring it isn't going to help. Explicitly addressing it and helping out the less-privileged group will.
      • Karunamon 13y ago
        Doesn't really address the point at all. Maybe racism is best solved by treating all as equals instead of creating further insular groups? It does seem logically absurd on its face. The first step is to stop snarking at people who dare to ask.
        • sp332 13y ago
          It's not "further insular". It's a group that already exists. Treating people as all equal is fine. Pretending that all people are treated as equal in society is not helpful.
          • Karunamon 13y ago
            I'd argue that perpetuating the problem of people being treated different in society is even worse.
            • sp332 13y ago
              But middle-class white men are disproportionately encouraged to be programmers. As the article points out: "There were very few women and nobody of color. I found that puzzling since the startup industry was obviously booming." So to be fair, we should either stop encouraging them, or start encouraging people who are outside that group.
              • 13y ago
  • TallGuyShort 13y ago
    Begging your pardon, I grew up in South Africa during apartheid and feel very much the same as the OP. I recognize that these groups have value for victims of racism and are done with good intentions. However, I also feel that if they are over-done or are started with more of a pride about one's (traditionally persecuted) race than the humble intention to serve others, they are only breeding animosity between races and keeping race as a "big deal" in our minds.
    • tinco 13y ago
      I'm sorry if my opinion offended you. It's not that I feel yours is a terrible opinion to have, I believe Morgan Freeman shares it. I just think that positive energy put towards solving problems minorities are having can be a good thing. And that energy should not be tossed aside for the idealistic idea of ignoring racism to death. Also, I think it's wildly speculative that these efforts breed animosity. I would ask you to reconsider if that idea has any base to it, perhaps a call for evidence is in place.
      • TallGuyShort 13y ago
        Your opinion did not offend me, but the phrase "It's easy to not think about racism when racism isn't an issue in your environment" strikes me as a No True Scotsman argument. "Think we should ignore race? You must not be around racists". My environment was world-famous for it's racists. The only evidence I have to offer is purely anecdotal, but I've found with people I know who got involved with political activist groups in southern Africa just got more bitter and contentious on the subject the longer they were in those groups. I've had some Hispanic friends join cultural groups and then begin to focus more and more on the differences between themselves and the Americans around them. I've also noticed in some groups I've visited for South African ex-pats that people get together and just complain about all the things they miss about the culture they used to enjoy. I can think of a couple of groups I've seen (most notably, a polynesian dance group) where people genuinely just got together and had a good time celebrating the culture, and that was positive. But I think I've seen more negative results than positive ones. Come to think of it, the polynesian dance group did a lot to invite non-polynesians to join in. It was a celebration of that culture, but it was very focused on including everyone - not just helping one group catch up to another.
• rza 13y ago
  You may not be thinking about race, but an outsider looking at the tech industry probably is. Ideally, yes whether everyone is black or white shouldn't really matter, but I'm sure you feel the same way as well when you are in an 'ethnic' neighborhood or gathering. You don't feel the sense of belonging or at the very least, the racial apathy that everyone else feels. By gathering people with the same upbringing together to work toward a common goal, it builds camaraderie and morale, not so different from why companies care about 'culture-fit'.
  • jquery 13y ago
    > an outsider looking at the tech industry probably is Is that something to be encouraged or discouraged? > By gathering people with the same upbringing together to work toward a common goal, People of the same race have the same upbringing? What am I even reading? > I'm sure you feel the same way as well when you are in an 'ethnic' neighborhood or gathering. Are we as a society supposed to indulge that feeling? Pampering that feeling creates more racial fracturing than it fixes.
    • rza 13y ago
      I won't go into what's right and what's wrong or what the solution should be. I myself am often skeptical about the purpose of a lot of racial discussion, but I don't see anything terrible about black girls trying to come together and code. I won't ignore the basic human psychology that you will gravitate toward people you feel you have more in common with. > Is that something to be encouraged or discouraged? I think you're reading way too much into what I'm saying. I'm just stating how I think it is. Whether you like it or not, when a homogeneous group gains power anywhere, people will be suspicious, just like if a company was run solely by Republicans, the Smith family, or black people. > People of the same race have the same upbringing? What am I even reading? Fine, I'll be more specific, under-privileged African-Americans, 2nd generation Latinos, Southern rural white people tend to have have similar upbringings with regard to family, income, culture, and education. > Are we as a society supposed to indulge that feeling? > Pampering that feeling creates more racial fracturing than it fixes. I'm not offering any solutions. But for the topic at hand, when black girls come together to code, that's not saying they shouldn't hangout with white people. You're implying a false conflict. That wouldn't be the case with something like affirmative action or racial quotas which does cause conflicts.
• sp332 13y ago
  It's more like a subculture. If people in the group already identify with the group, then I don't think this is going to hurt. It's about having fun with people you relate to. If you like participating in "black girl culture" or "gaming nerd culture" or "english-speaking perl guru culture" you're going to have a better time (on average) than "one big group of humans culture".
  • BlakePetersen 13y ago
    I tend to agree that its a cultural issue and the values that culture champions, not an explicitly racial issue. There's no law of nature keeping black females from coding, but the values traditionally promoted by the culture black females tend to identify with doesn't include coding, which Kimberly Bryant is trying to change. If they actively kept non-black females who identify with this culture from joining, I would feel a bit more concerned that it's heading down the wrong path. According to the Eventbrite link, no such requisites are stated, only that the program is intended for females aged 7-17.
• bayesianhorse 13y ago
  I'm also sceptic, but if they are purposely "sampling" black girls into some social "learn to code" program with limited resources, it might not be the worst thing to do. Depending on location and neighbourhoods, or scope of the program they might actually have less success drawing anybody with a less specific target group.
• chc 13y ago
  > I wasn't thinking about race Maybe you should just appreciate having that luxury rather than criticize those who do not have it.
  • Nerdfest 13y ago
    It's not a luxury. It's free and everyone can do it. It would be nice if more people started.
    • eseehausen 13y ago
      You can't not think about race if people discriminate against you based on it. That was the point. Some people are forced to think about their identity categories.
    • chc 13y ago
      When people come up to me in the middle of dinner and tell me I should not be with my fiancee due to our respective skin colors, it is pretty difficult even for me not to think about it sometimes. And I think I have a fairly sheltered position in society relative to your average young black girl.
• mladenkovacevic 13y ago
  I have no strong opinions on this but perhaps the initiative isn't meant to make you think or not think about race or gender. It's not designed to make you more racially sensitive or be more considerate towards women. I imagine it exists for the purpose of making programming more popular among women and particularly women of African American background because at the moment I guess it's not seen as a valid career option for them. I don't know anything about the effectiveness of these programs or anything, but I believe they have a purpose outside of making men people feel welcoming to women in programming.
• saltyknuckles 13y ago
  I don't see too many black and hispanic people at startups in SV. Whether it is intentional racism or not white men dominate the space. I'm not hating on white people but this is the reality.
• vacri 13y ago
  Disagree with my viewpoint? Please comment before you downvote. The presence of this part of your comment indicates that you already know the answer to what you've asked, and are really just trolling by 'playing the innocent'. Please don't do that.
  • Karunamon 13y ago
    Or, it indicates acknowledgement that people will rabidly attack anything even remotely resembling a challenge of the status quo when it comes to sociological issues. You just did it, too. Why on earth do you play off "think before you down vote" as a negative?!
    • vacri 13y ago
      You just did it, too. You have a very, very low bar for 'rabidly attack'. Actually, taking you on face value, it's curious that you didn't make the same criticism to the parent comment, who is 'rabidly attacking' the group in the article who are 'challenging the status quo when it comes to sociological issues'. Why on earth do you play off "think before you down vote" as a negative?! Oh, please. It was 'playing the innocent'. Pandering to such trolls keeps the debate at a very low level. The troll worked, too - look at all the responses.
      • Karunamon 13y ago
        Considering this is HN, I'd call the atmosphere in this thread excessively negative, snarky, and unhelpful, and yes, rabid, relatively speaking. That being partially aided by people like you who called out a perfectly innocent comment as a troll. the parent comment, who is 'rabidly attacking' the group in the article who are 'challenging the status quo when it comes to sociological issues' The group in the article are doing no such thing. My reading of the current societal status quo is that being discriminatory acceptable as long as you are a member of a protected class doing it for altruistic reasons.
        • vacri 13y ago
• MichaelGG 13y ago
  This thread isn't going to resolve anything on this "issue"; just look up affirmative action. There's the logic you provide, which is solid. The counterargument is that certain groups currently have a major disadvantage and specifically targeting them improves things, despite it excluding on race or other characteristics. In this case, it may be that "black girls" wouldn't feel comfortable or would be significantly outnumbered in a general "group of humans" so excluding people provides a net benefit in this case. Another view is that private groups should be able to do whatever they want, and discrimination is only a problem when it's a problem. If "black girls" grew to dominate the industry or significantly change things, then it's become problematic. Obviously that's a rather subjective measurement hence all the "debate".
  • elwell 13y ago
    Thanks, good points.
  • danellis 13y ago
    If black girls don't feel comfortable learning with people who aren't, how are they going to cope with a job in the currently white-male dominated industry anyway? Sheltering people doesn't seem like good preparation for reality.
    • jlgreco 13y ago
      I don't think we should necessarily expect children to be able to cope with the range of social situations that we expect adults to handle.
• pekk 13y ago
  Are you upset about discrimination against whites? Is that what the important issue is here?
• sAuronas 13y ago
  Sure we can...however, as a former (post-race discussion) black man learning to program on my own, I can say that the problems of "urban black youth" (as I was once called as an undergrad by a professor) are unique and not going away with wish-think -- or -- technology. Therefore, targeted programs at the underrepresented are required in the same vein that laser surgery is targeted at the cancer cells and not the whole body (i.e., your "one big group of humans"). Long live humans... cheers
• duaneb 13y ago
  You probably have the luxury of living a life where racism is not readily visible. Not everyone does, and minority focused groups help, among many other things, bring attention to these problems that have more and more impact the further down the income scale you go.