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I have a dim view of research in the humanities. I have a strong view of teaching in the humanities. In my mind, much of engineering, computer science, math,

I have a dim view of research in the humanities. I have a strong view of teaching in the humanities. In my mind, much of engineering, computer science, math, and non-lab science can be efficiently taught online. Probably a lot of business school coursework too. For at least the intro and intermediate courses, it's about having a body of material that can be mastered. Discussion isn't as important if you can learn the material on your own. Comparative literature, history, philosophy and similar subjects are very important, and are more likely to require live in-person teachers. Discussions are important. Subjective grading and coaching of individual papers is important. Multiple choice exams are less likely to work. I'm also a strong believer that humanities degrees complement professional degrees. An accounting major can do my taxes. An accounting and English major can break arcane financial reports into plain English for investors. A math major is ince. A math major who studies French literature may also be able to read French proofs in their original language. What I question is the relative value of the teacher's research. What's the right break-up of teaching to research time for humanities? Is it the same as the sciences? Is the current ratio correct? I believe that the current ratio is not correct. One needs only to look at how expensive small liberal arts colleges are. If their teachers spent more time in the classroom and less doing arcane research, the costs would come down. Perhaps if you're a top 10 school it's ok, but not as a lower tier school. I have a right to complain as a parent, as well as a taxpayer whose government is subsidizing student loans and paying for schools. Now disillusioned Phds is another problem... Systemically everyone is incented to produce more Phds than required. It's definitely a situation of letting the buyer beware early on.

mjn 13y ago
> One needs only to look at how expensive small liberal arts colleges are. If their teachers spent more time in the classroom and less doing arcane research, the costs would come down. But small liberal arts colleges are the places that already do primarily prioritize teaching, and expect professors to do relatively little research. Professors typically teach more courses per semester than at research universities, and are hired and promoted primarily based on teaching ability rather than research portfolio. This was the case at the Claremont Colleges, at least, where I went for undergrad; most professors just did a little research on the side, maybe one paper a year, and spent nearly full-time teaching. They're expensive mainly because they have very small class sizes (big emphasis on small discussion seminars), and typically much smaller endowments and fewer donations than the famous research universities do. Plus, since none of the salaries or lab facilities are paid for by research-grant money, those have to come out of tuition, too. And, since there are no grad students, professors typically do most of the teaching work themselves, rather than offloading a significant proportion to a TA, as is done at research universities: sections, tutorials, grading, office hours, etc. are all the professor's responsibility. Big research universities, like MIT or Stanford or University of Texas or UCLA, are the ones that primarily emphasize research track record.
- theOnliest 13y ago
  This has been my experience as well. I went to a small liberal arts college for undergrad. My teachers there did very little research, but all taught their small classes by themselves with no TA. My particular field (music) tends to be much more expensive per student since private lessons must be taught one-on-one. One physics professor could teach 15 students for three hours a week, but a piano professor needs essentially needs 15 hours to teach each of those students for one hour a week. Some of this work can be done in small groups/classes, but higher music education is much more individual. Some of my colleagues who have graduated now teach at liberal arts schools where their tenure requirement is essentially one presentation at a regional conference or one publication, with a strong record of teaching. Compare this to a large institution, where the expectation has traditionally been that you need a book deal in order to obtain tenure, whether or not you're much good as a teacher of undergraduates.
- mathattack 13y ago
  Point well taken. I appreciate your insight. So here's a secondary question... Could the overall cost of the education be reduced if the intro classes were taught online? Or the non-humanities intro classes taught online?
Fomite 13y ago
As the other poster has mentioned, teaching is part of what makes these colleges expensive. Teaching heavy departments (the humanities) have one source of income: student fees Research heavy departments (science, engineering, medicine) have both student fees and grants - not only to pay salary, but also to cover things like keeping the lights on, computing power, administrative support, etc. This is often a substantial amount of the total cost of a grant. Going to pure teaching means everything has to be carried by either student fees or tax payers (for public institutions).
- mathattack 13y ago
  I appreciate your insight. Let's do a very back of the envelope oversimplified calculation... Let's say assume the following: - Semester system - Each teacher teaches 5 classes per year (2 one semester, 3 the other) - Each student takes 10 classes per year - Each class is 20 students (assume very low - liberal arts college) - Each teacher earns 100K in total comp - Each teacher requires an assistant making 40K in total comp - Each teacher and assistant pair carries an admin making 100K in total comp - Each course costs $5K The math I get says: - 50K total tuition per student - 20 students = $1mm revenue - 20 students = 200 course-students = (20 teachers/class * 5 classes * 2 teachers) = 2 teachers + 2 assistants + 2 admins - Staffing cost = 200K + 80K + 200K = 480K In this oversimplified model of small classes, tuition covers the teachers, their graders and admin overhead 4 times over. Are buildings really that expensive in rural America? Even if all the classes are 10 people each the #s don't add up. Are people really getting 50% discounts? Are football stadiums for these colleges so expensive? The astounding ratio I follow is tuition divided by fully loaded faculty salary. If it's 1/2, that tells me something is wrong in how the faculty are spending their time.
  - Fomite 13y ago
    Working on mathematical models for a living, if the number at the end comes out as "That can't be right..." odds are its a problem with the model, not the system it's modeling. You've made a lot of simplifications, both on the income and expenses end of your envelope math that I very much doubt are correct. Universities, even small ones, are fairly large, complex organizations that are extremely capital intensive. This is complicated by the fact that many of the institutions we're talking about are private, so we don't have many numbers. But to the major point of moving toward teaching, and away from research, we can look at the balance sheet of a large state university system: For 2012, the UNC system took in $320,535,000 in student fees and $725,846,000 in grants and contracts. While UNC is a fairly good deal for it's students (if you're in-state) its hardly free, and grant income outpaces student fees by a healthy margin.

mjn 13y ago

> One needs only to look at how expensive small liberal arts colleges are. If their teachers spent more time in the classroom and less doing arcane research, the costs would come down. But small liberal arts colleges are the places that already do primarily prioritize teaching, and expect professors to do relatively little research. Professors typically teach more courses per semester than at research universities, and are hired and promoted primarily based on teaching ability rather than research portfolio. This was the case at the Claremont Colleges, at least, where I went for undergrad; most professors just did a little research on the side, maybe one paper a year, and spent nearly full-time teaching. They're expensive mainly because they have very small class sizes (big emphasis on small discussion seminars), and typically much smaller endowments and fewer donations than the famous research universities do. Plus, since none of the salaries or lab facilities are paid for by research-grant money, those have to come out of tuition, too. And, since there are no grad students, professors typically do most of the teaching work themselves, rather than offloading a significant proportion to a TA, as is done at research universities: sections, tutorials, grading, office hours, etc. are all the professor's responsibility. Big research universities, like MIT or Stanford or University of Texas or UCLA, are the ones that primarily emphasize research track record.

theOnliest 13y ago
This has been my experience as well. I went to a small liberal arts college for undergrad. My teachers there did very little research, but all taught their small classes by themselves with no TA. My particular field (music) tends to be much more expensive per student since private lessons must be taught one-on-one. One physics professor could teach 15 students for three hours a week, but a piano professor needs essentially needs 15 hours to teach each of those students for one hour a week. Some of this work can be done in small groups/classes, but higher music education is much more individual. Some of my colleagues who have graduated now teach at liberal arts schools where their tenure requirement is essentially one presentation at a regional conference or one publication, with a strong record of teaching. Compare this to a large institution, where the expectation has traditionally been that you need a book deal in order to obtain tenure, whether or not you're much good as a teacher of undergraduates.
mathattack 13y ago
Point well taken. I appreciate your insight. So here's a secondary question... Could the overall cost of the education be reduced if the intro classes were taught online? Or the non-humanities intro classes taught online?

Fomite 13y ago

As the other poster has mentioned, teaching is part of what makes these colleges expensive. Teaching heavy departments (the humanities) have one source of income: student fees Research heavy departments (science, engineering, medicine) have both student fees and grants - not only to pay salary, but also to cover things like keeping the lights on, computing power, administrative support, etc. This is often a substantial amount of the total cost of a grant. Going to pure teaching means everything has to be carried by either student fees or tax payers (for public institutions).

mathattack 13y ago
I appreciate your insight. Let's do a very back of the envelope oversimplified calculation... Let's say assume the following: - Semester system - Each teacher teaches 5 classes per year (2 one semester, 3 the other) - Each student takes 10 classes per year - Each class is 20 students (assume very low - liberal arts college) - Each teacher earns 100K in total comp - Each teacher requires an assistant making 40K in total comp - Each teacher and assistant pair carries an admin making 100K in total comp - Each course costs $5K The math I get says: - 50K total tuition per student - 20 students = $1mm revenue - 20 students = 200 course-students = (20 teachers/class * 5 classes * 2 teachers) = 2 teachers + 2 assistants + 2 admins - Staffing cost = 200K + 80K + 200K = 480K In this oversimplified model of small classes, tuition covers the teachers, their graders and admin overhead 4 times over. Are buildings really that expensive in rural America? Even if all the classes are 10 people each the #s don't add up. Are people really getting 50% discounts? Are football stadiums for these colleges so expensive? The astounding ratio I follow is tuition divided by fully loaded faculty salary. If it's 1/2, that tells me something is wrong in how the faculty are spending their time.
- Fomite 13y ago
  Working on mathematical models for a living, if the number at the end comes out as "That can't be right..." odds are its a problem with the model, not the system it's modeling. You've made a lot of simplifications, both on the income and expenses end of your envelope math that I very much doubt are correct. Universities, even small ones, are fairly large, complex organizations that are extremely capital intensive. This is complicated by the fact that many of the institutions we're talking about are private, so we don't have many numbers. But to the major point of moving toward teaching, and away from research, we can look at the balance sheet of a large state university system: For 2012, the UNC system took in $320,535,000 in student fees and $725,846,000 in grants and contracts. While UNC is a fairly good deal for it's students (if you're in-state) its hardly free, and grant income outpaces student fees by a healthy margin.