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There are a lot of unstated values out there. I'm a great father -- really -- but it isn't hard to look at my divorce and think it happened because I didn't ma

There are a lot of unstated values out there. I'm a great father -- really -- but it isn't hard to look at my divorce and think it happened because I didn't make the money my wife expected of me. This despite the supposedly anti-material, pro-family values of herself and her set. Don't get me wrong, I made some SERIOUS mistakes of my own, and had some important problems to work through. She has her side of the story too, and neither of us could tell a simple story. But money and earning was a huge problem, even when I was making two or three standard deviations more than the US average. And it was a shock to me to see how many people supposedly rejected the rat-race values, and knew my relationship with my kids, yet couldn't be bothered to call to see how I was doing. People say they want dads who focus on their kids, but I haven't noticed much effort to support those guys in the tight spots. At least not when Mom declares the guy a loser. Again. No representation of personal perfection is made or intended. I had a lot to work on in the marriage, found more in the divorce, still finding more yet. Yay. I hope this doesn't come across bitter. I think there is a lot of confusion in the discussions of gender roles and career and child raising, and I think a lack of candor is part of that. So it is important to notice that a great deal of the values declared, are declared for the nobility of the declaration and don't prove to mean much. A good many people are smarter / wiser / more careful than I was, and don't take those declarations at face value, and so find themselves making better decisions and on firmer foundations. But it is impossible to really talk to most of those people about their attitudes, because they all know that some of their opinions could bring a lot of flak. Why pay that price to be candid? Especially when, let's face it, many of these conversations are begun with an intended conclusion in mind. From what I've seen, personally, we need a LOT more honesty in our discussions of gender roles and careers and child raising. And a LOT of that has to come from people on the "progressive" side of the discussion.

GuiA 13y ago
Thanks for taking the time to write and share this :)
beachstartup 13y ago
there's a high chance you did nothing wrong and she simply wanted out. don't beat yourself up over this.
- chernevik 13y ago
  I hurt my first girlfriend with behavior that was a problem in the marriage. I thought I'd addressed it, I hadn't gone anywhere far enough. Unacceptable. We all make mistakes but I want to fix what I can.
padobson 13y ago
Three cheers for you, my friend. No one knows the loneliness of being Dad like Dad, and you did an excellent job of articulating it. Doing the right thing as a parent often goes un-celebrated, un-thanked, and most certainly un-paid. This is one of the great failures of our society, and the main reason there are so many fatherless children out there. If two people are going to make another person, then at the very least they need to continually communicate what their roles are in raising that person and, maybe more importantly, support and encourage one another in those roles - BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE IS GOING TO.
- chernevik 13y ago
  Thank you, and I think what you say is true. Just bc I don't want to toot my own horn: I am not saying the marriage didn't fail bc I over-emphasized being Dad. I am saying that what I did do as Dad, didn't get the respect I thought it might. Also: I didn't do parent for the respect, and I could have fixed a lot of mistakes without being less of a Dad.
  - Zimahl 13y ago
    Well, we certainly live in a very weird time. There's a level of expectation of dads now that there wasn't for my dad. There is now an expectation of 50/50 in raising children even with stay-at-home moms. That means cooking, cleaning, laundry, entertainment, etc., falls on the dad a lot. Whereas even 30 years ago this certainly wasn't the case. My father was a good dad but certainly didn't clean anything other than the garage. He didn't bathe any of us kids or tuck us in. He sure as hell didn't buy groceries. What he did do it kept the yard clean, the roof clear, the garden growing, the cars running, and coached baseball. I think too many dads these days are too busy being mom #2. And women think that's what they want but in reality it emasculates their husband in their eyes.
cmiles74 13y ago
I am compelled to agree with this. In my opinion, many people take the easy route of claiming to support this or that ideal yet do not take the necessary time and introspection to ensure that the reality of their actions backs up that claim. This would seem to explain the often huge gap between what society claims they tolerate and support compared to the pressures and expectations people experience day-to-day.
jerf 13y ago
"From what I've seen, personally, we need a LOT more honesty in our discussions of gender roles and careers and child raising." For what it's worth, I really recommend everybody take the time to read through some of the "manosphere" stuff, for this reason. It has people speaking honestly due to it being a counterculture thing where it's already read that the current dominant culture rejects the ideas wholesale. You probably won't agree with all of it; you may not agree with any of it. I'm not endorsing it the content. But I will endorse it as the sort of thought-provoking thing that anybody who thinks of themselves as an intellectual (as opposed to merely posing as one) ought to expose themselves to, and chew through. There's some thought-provoking stuff in there. Even if you disagree with it, if you consider yourself an intellectual you ought to be able to muster a higher, more refined level of disagreement than merely slapping a "misogynist" label on it.
booruguru 13y ago
How exactly was money a problem? What kinds of conversations/arguments did you have about money?
- nobodysfool 13y ago
  I believe it's talking about his 'marrying up' and not making as much money as the wife being an issue, since this article is suggesting that women should 'marry down' (as in marrying someone who makes less money, or is less educated than you).
- chernevik 13y ago
  We made some moves, and she some sacrifices, that expected I would make a lot more than I did. That is on me, as are some of the issues driving that. I have complaints about other issues bearing on this, but that gets messy. That said, we were making enough, if we budgeted. And she wouldn't, and we fought about it a lot.

GuiA 13y ago

Thanks for taking the time to write and share this :)

beachstartup 13y ago

there's a high chance you did nothing wrong and she simply wanted out. don't beat yourself up over this.

chernevik 13y ago
I hurt my first girlfriend with behavior that was a problem in the marriage. I thought I'd addressed it, I hadn't gone anywhere far enough. Unacceptable. We all make mistakes but I want to fix what I can.

padobson 13y ago

Three cheers for you, my friend. No one knows the loneliness of being Dad like Dad, and you did an excellent job of articulating it. Doing the right thing as a parent often goes un-celebrated, un-thanked, and most certainly un-paid. This is one of the great failures of our society, and the main reason there are so many fatherless children out there. If two people are going to make another person, then at the very least they need to continually communicate what their roles are in raising that person and, maybe more importantly, support and encourage one another in those roles - BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE IS GOING TO.

chernevik 13y ago
Thank you, and I think what you say is true. Just bc I don't want to toot my own horn: I am not saying the marriage didn't fail bc I over-emphasized being Dad. I am saying that what I did do as Dad, didn't get the respect I thought it might. Also: I didn't do parent for the respect, and I could have fixed a lot of mistakes without being less of a Dad.
- Zimahl 13y ago
  Well, we certainly live in a very weird time. There's a level of expectation of dads now that there wasn't for my dad. There is now an expectation of 50/50 in raising children even with stay-at-home moms. That means cooking, cleaning, laundry, entertainment, etc., falls on the dad a lot. Whereas even 30 years ago this certainly wasn't the case. My father was a good dad but certainly didn't clean anything other than the garage. He didn't bathe any of us kids or tuck us in. He sure as hell didn't buy groceries. What he did do it kept the yard clean, the roof clear, the garden growing, the cars running, and coached baseball. I think too many dads these days are too busy being mom #2. And women think that's what they want but in reality it emasculates their husband in their eyes.

cmiles74 13y ago

I am compelled to agree with this. In my opinion, many people take the easy route of claiming to support this or that ideal yet do not take the necessary time and introspection to ensure that the reality of their actions backs up that claim. This would seem to explain the often huge gap between what society claims they tolerate and support compared to the pressures and expectations people experience day-to-day.

jerf 13y ago

"From what I've seen, personally, we need a LOT more honesty in our discussions of gender roles and careers and child raising." For what it's worth, I really recommend everybody take the time to read through some of the "manosphere" stuff, for this reason. It has people speaking honestly due to it being a counterculture thing where it's already read that the current dominant culture rejects the ideas wholesale. You probably won't agree with all of it; you may not agree with any of it. I'm not endorsing it the content. But I will endorse it as the sort of thought-provoking thing that anybody who thinks of themselves as an intellectual (as opposed to merely posing as one) ought to expose themselves to, and chew through. There's some thought-provoking stuff in there. Even if you disagree with it, if you consider yourself an intellectual you ought to be able to muster a higher, more refined level of disagreement than merely slapping a "misogynist" label on it.

booruguru 13y ago

How exactly was money a problem? What kinds of conversations/arguments did you have about money?

nobodysfool 13y ago
I believe it's talking about his 'marrying up' and not making as much money as the wife being an issue, since this article is suggesting that women should 'marry down' (as in marrying someone who makes less money, or is less educated than you).
chernevik 13y ago
We made some moves, and she some sacrifices, that expected I would make a lot more than I did. That is on me, as are some of the issues driving that. I have complaints about other issues bearing on this, but that gets messy. That said, we were making enough, if we budgeted. And she wouldn't, and we fought about it a lot.