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Interesting to hear you say that. My views on feminism changed* after reading a piece titled "Don't Hate Her Because She's Successful" [1]. It's a bit wordy, so

Interesting to hear you say that. My views on feminism changed* after reading a piece titled "Don't Hate Her Because She's Successful" [1]. It's a bit wordy, so I'll condense it as much as I can in the context of your reply. > My wife is a corporate lawyer and gets a lot of flak for working long hours, especially from family. Nobody ever gives me flak for working long hours. Painting in broad brush strokes, men tend to find that when they get married, society reinforces their career ambitions. Women tend to find that when they get married, society chips away at their career ambitions. Other women, particularly other moms, are the worst about it. The aforementioned author argues, more or less cogently, that popular feminism seems to have been all about erasing this imbalance by grading successful women by the same rubric as successful men. But this is the wrong idea, and it seems to establish this extremely misguided notion that the men had it right all along: fulfillment and happiness are only accomplished by working long hours for worse pay under terrible management. The men, the popular feminists seem to be arguing, really understood what life was about the whole time and only through truly egalitarian "feminism by the numbers", where men and women work the same number of hours and for the same salaries and in the same proportions in every industry can women be happy. But, that author argues, is that it's a ruse. There's no reason to assume the men had it right, that being willing to sell your soul for the corporate machine is envious or desirable or worthwhile. > "Other women ... are the worst about it." Why is that bad? Why is it that women are the worst when espousing the idea that life isn't about career ambition? It's worth thinking about. Why is the unfair social pressure that your wife is urged to spend more time with her family, and not that you're urged to spend more time at work? Maybe, the author argues, society and popular feminism is profoundly mistaken. Perhaps the real thing we should all be fighting for is a society in which people aren't asked to work long hours ever again. Where the balance between the home and the workplace is more equitable such that we don't have to make necessarily gender-biasing decisions like having to decide which family member will work longer and which one will stay home longer. [1]: http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2013/03/dont_hate_her_because_shes_suc.html http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2013/03/dont_hate_her_because... * - SLOW DOWN THERE. I'm a feminist.

coryrc 13y ago
> erasing this imbalance by grading successful women by the same rubric as successful men. But this is the wrong idea, and it seems to establish this extremely misguided notion that the men had it right all along Some people want career success. Some people want to take care of a family. There are both genders in each group, but society only supports one gender in each. A feminist point is people of both genders should be supported in whichever endeavor fulfills them. ps You are not a feminist.
- beachstartup 13y ago
  > A feminist point is people of both genders should be supported in whichever endeavor fulfills them. this may be how it looks on paper, but in reality the 'right wing' (hah) of feminism hijacks the agenda. modern feminism is like the republican party of gender relations.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Society is more accepting of men who join street gangs (rather than corporations). However, I think correcting that imbalance by focusing on how society treats women in gangs, rather than how society treats men in gangs, would be a mistake. Don't you? It is surely an imbalance that needs correcting, but there is legitimate question as to how that imbalance is best corrected.
casca 13y ago
Great link, thank you.
rayiner 13y ago
I have seen this point of view and understand where it's coming from, but I think it puts the cart before the horse. Maybe it should be the case that society should define success not by the status of your profession and the size of your bank account, but by your other contributions. However, at the current time, it does not. In the United States, money is everything. It decides whether your kids go to a decent school, whether you get medical care, whether you can live in a place without intolerable crime. We live in this society: http://blog.figuringshitout.com/the-parable-of-the-fisherman http://blog.figuringshitout.com/the-parable-of-the-fisherman. Within this context, "opting out" means depending on a man for security, and telling women that "motherhood is more fulfilling than work" is encouraging them to be dependent. My wife sees it as rationalization--women trying to convince themselves that people do respect parenting because they should respect it. Anecdote: when my wife had trouble finding a job initially in law school, a career counselor tried to comfort her by pointing out that at least I had a good job. To a person who yearns to be self-sufficient it wasn't comforting--it was devastating.

coryrc 13y ago

> erasing this imbalance by grading successful women by the same rubric as successful men. But this is the wrong idea, and it seems to establish this extremely misguided notion that the men had it right all along Some people want career success. Some people want to take care of a family. There are both genders in each group, but society only supports one gender in each. A feminist point is people of both genders should be supported in whichever endeavor fulfills them. ps You are not a feminist.

beachstartup 13y ago
> A feminist point is people of both genders should be supported in whichever endeavor fulfills them. this may be how it looks on paper, but in reality the 'right wing' (hah) of feminism hijacks the agenda. modern feminism is like the republican party of gender relations.
jlgreco 13y ago
Society is more accepting of men who join street gangs (rather than corporations). However, I think correcting that imbalance by focusing on how society treats women in gangs, rather than how society treats men in gangs, would be a mistake. Don't you? It is surely an imbalance that needs correcting, but there is legitimate question as to how that imbalance is best corrected.

casca 13y ago

Great link, thank you.

rayiner 13y ago

I have seen this point of view and understand where it's coming from, but I think it puts the cart before the horse. Maybe it should be the case that society should define success not by the status of your profession and the size of your bank account, but by your other contributions. However, at the current time, it does not. In the United States, money is everything. It decides whether your kids go to a decent school, whether you get medical care, whether you can live in a place without intolerable crime. We live in this society: http://blog.figuringshitout.com/the-parable-of-the-fisherman http://blog.figuringshitout.com/the-parable-of-the-fisherman. Within this context, "opting out" means depending on a man for security, and telling women that "motherhood is more fulfilling than work" is encouraging them to be dependent. My wife sees it as rationalization--women trying to convince themselves that people do respect parenting because they should respect it. Anecdote: when my wife had trouble finding a job initially in law school, a career counselor tried to comfort her by pointing out that at least I had a good job. To a person who yearns to be self-sufficient it wasn't comforting--it was devastating.