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> Do we really need more papers on Ancient History, or should we invest the same money in better teaching? This seems to me like a pretty dim view of the human

> Do we really need more papers on Ancient History, or should we invest the same money in better teaching? This seems to me like a pretty dim view of the humanities in general. Research in the humanities is not in the same category as research in Computer Science, for example; there is often little to no free-market value. People who enter the humanities tend to do so (at least in my experience) because knowledge for the sake of knowledge is something worth pursuing. Your next company might not make a fortune knowing more about agricultural practices of the ancient Macedonians, or the concept of fatherhood in the music of Robert Schumann, but people doing that research aren't doing it simply "to advance their career," and not necessarily just to teach new people how to research either. It has traditionally been the function of universities to foster this sort of research, as a general goal of "making the world a better, more knowledgeable place." It's a societal goal that goes way back: people say that humanity was set back something like 1000 years when the library at Alexandria burned down. This type of research doesn't fit neatly into any of your categories, and it is (I think) a more trenchant problem. Disillusioned humanities PhD's often have problems finding work in the "real world," since companies aren't keen on hiring someone who knows everything there is to know about Macedonian agriculture. -- a fairly disillusioned Ph.D. student in Music Theory

tomrod 13y ago
What do you see as the value-add to taxpayers of humanities degrees? Would a patronage system work better for these types of degrees?
- theOnliest 13y ago
  The value-add to taxpayers is much less concrete in the humanities. My argument was that research in the humanities is essentially done for the sake of doing research: to learn more about the world and the people in it. It is hard to see definite, monetary benefits, which is one of the reason arts/music/creative writing programs are being slashed cut in favor of match/science in primary education in the US. The benefit of studying the humanities is one of personal edification. Students who study art or music in school are likely to be more disciplined and score better on standardized tests than their non-musician/artist colleagues. Not to mention, young students who have a strong background in the humanities are often happier with their quality of life (I know that music was the highlight of my day/week when I was in school). A patronage program would be great for this type of degree...if any VCs out there want a personal music theorist I'd be happy to apply! My argument is that it is traditionally universities which have been the patrons of these degrees. This goes back at least to the earliest universities in Europe, where students learned the seven liberal arts: grammar, logic, rhetoric, arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy. The idea of the university was not to churn out good economic workers (as it tends to be today) but to produce well-rounded human beings. We in the humanities still think this is a worthy goal (and consequently, tend to make much less than our STEM counterparts).
mathattack 13y ago
I have a dim view of research in the humanities. I have a strong view of teaching in the humanities. In my mind, much of engineering, computer science, math, and non-lab science can be efficiently taught online. Probably a lot of business school coursework too. For at least the intro and intermediate courses, it's about having a body of material that can be mastered. Discussion isn't as important if you can learn the material on your own. Comparative literature, history, philosophy and similar subjects are very important, and are more likely to require live in-person teachers. Discussions are important. Subjective grading and coaching of individual papers is important. Multiple choice exams are less likely to work. I'm also a strong believer that humanities degrees complement professional degrees. An accounting major can do my taxes. An accounting and English major can break arcane financial reports into plain English for investors. A math major is ince. A math major who studies French literature may also be able to read French proofs in their original language. What I question is the relative value of the teacher's research. What's the right break-up of teaching to research time for humanities? Is it the same as the sciences? Is the current ratio correct? I believe that the current ratio is not correct. One needs only to look at how expensive small liberal arts colleges are. If their teachers spent more time in the classroom and less doing arcane research, the costs would come down. Perhaps if you're a top 10 school it's ok, but not as a lower tier school. I have a right to complain as a parent, as well as a taxpayer whose government is subsidizing student loans and paying for schools. Now disillusioned Phds is another problem... Systemically everyone is incented to produce more Phds than required. It's definitely a situation of letting the buyer beware early on.
- mjn 13y ago
  > One needs only to look at how expensive small liberal arts colleges are. If their teachers spent more time in the classroom and less doing arcane research, the costs would come down. But small liberal arts colleges are the places that already do primarily prioritize teaching, and expect professors to do relatively little research. Professors typically teach more courses per semester than at research universities, and are hired and promoted primarily based on teaching ability rather than research portfolio. This was the case at the Claremont Colleges, at least, where I went for undergrad; most professors just did a little research on the side, maybe one paper a year, and spent nearly full-time teaching. They're expensive mainly because they have very small class sizes (big emphasis on small discussion seminars), and typically much smaller endowments and fewer donations than the famous research universities do. Plus, since none of the salaries or lab facilities are paid for by research-grant money, those have to come out of tuition, too. And, since there are no grad students, professors typically do most of the teaching work themselves, rather than offloading a significant proportion to a TA, as is done at research universities: sections, tutorials, grading, office hours, etc. are all the professor's responsibility. Big research universities, like MIT or Stanford or University of Texas or UCLA, are the ones that primarily emphasize research track record.

tomrod 13y ago

What do you see as the value-add to taxpayers of humanities degrees? Would a patronage system work better for these types of degrees?

theOnliest 13y ago
The value-add to taxpayers is much less concrete in the humanities. My argument was that research in the humanities is essentially done for the sake of doing research: to learn more about the world and the people in it. It is hard to see definite, monetary benefits, which is one of the reason arts/music/creative writing programs are being slashed cut in favor of match/science in primary education in the US. The benefit of studying the humanities is one of personal edification. Students who study art or music in school are likely to be more disciplined and score better on standardized tests than their non-musician/artist colleagues. Not to mention, young students who have a strong background in the humanities are often happier with their quality of life (I know that music was the highlight of my day/week when I was in school). A patronage program would be great for this type of degree...if any VCs out there want a personal music theorist I'd be happy to apply! My argument is that it is traditionally universities which have been the patrons of these degrees. This goes back at least to the earliest universities in Europe, where students learned the seven liberal arts: grammar, logic, rhetoric, arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy. The idea of the university was not to churn out good economic workers (as it tends to be today) but to produce well-rounded human beings. We in the humanities still think this is a worthy goal (and consequently, tend to make much less than our STEM counterparts).

mathattack 13y ago

I have a dim view of research in the humanities. I have a strong view of teaching in the humanities. In my mind, much of engineering, computer science, math, and non-lab science can be efficiently taught online. Probably a lot of business school coursework too. For at least the intro and intermediate courses, it's about having a body of material that can be mastered. Discussion isn't as important if you can learn the material on your own. Comparative literature, history, philosophy and similar subjects are very important, and are more likely to require live in-person teachers. Discussions are important. Subjective grading and coaching of individual papers is important. Multiple choice exams are less likely to work. I'm also a strong believer that humanities degrees complement professional degrees. An accounting major can do my taxes. An accounting and English major can break arcane financial reports into plain English for investors. A math major is ince. A math major who studies French literature may also be able to read French proofs in their original language. What I question is the relative value of the teacher's research. What's the right break-up of teaching to research time for humanities? Is it the same as the sciences? Is the current ratio correct? I believe that the current ratio is not correct. One needs only to look at how expensive small liberal arts colleges are. If their teachers spent more time in the classroom and less doing arcane research, the costs would come down. Perhaps if you're a top 10 school it's ok, but not as a lower tier school. I have a right to complain as a parent, as well as a taxpayer whose government is subsidizing student loans and paying for schools. Now disillusioned Phds is another problem... Systemically everyone is incented to produce more Phds than required. It's definitely a situation of letting the buyer beware early on.

mjn 13y ago
> One needs only to look at how expensive small liberal arts colleges are. If their teachers spent more time in the classroom and less doing arcane research, the costs would come down. But small liberal arts colleges are the places that already do primarily prioritize teaching, and expect professors to do relatively little research. Professors typically teach more courses per semester than at research universities, and are hired and promoted primarily based on teaching ability rather than research portfolio. This was the case at the Claremont Colleges, at least, where I went for undergrad; most professors just did a little research on the side, maybe one paper a year, and spent nearly full-time teaching. They're expensive mainly because they have very small class sizes (big emphasis on small discussion seminars), and typically much smaller endowments and fewer donations than the famous research universities do. Plus, since none of the salaries or lab facilities are paid for by research-grant money, those have to come out of tuition, too. And, since there are no grad students, professors typically do most of the teaching work themselves, rather than offloading a significant proportion to a TA, as is done at research universities: sections, tutorials, grading, office hours, etc. are all the professor's responsibility. Big research universities, like MIT or Stanford or University of Texas or UCLA, are the ones that primarily emphasize research track record.