14 ms·

UK police mistakenly believed they found 3D printed gun in raid

68 points by kisamoto 13y ago

kh_hk 13y ago
The most important quote in the article: "It does look like the MakerBot part," says Stuart Offer of 3D-printing firm 3T RPD in Newbury, UK. "These 3D printed guns seem to have hit the headlines, but I've no idea why they take off so much," he says. "A little engineer in his shed with a mill down the bottom of the garden could make a proper metal barrel capable of firing a high-velocity bullet." And that's what I have been discussing with friends. Is printing a 3D gun that much easier than building a proto-gun with metal parts? I think they hit the headlines because the whole "the future is scary" appeals to the masses, or at least, "3D printed guns" sounds like something out of a movie (for instance, "In the Line of Fire").
- Wingman4l7 13y ago
  A home-made gun, aka a "zip gun"[1] is much easier to make -- but like you said, it doesn't sound nearly as scary as "any criminal can, with the press of a button, print out a gun at home!" (nevermind that it's not as simple as pressing a button, and they only work for a shot or two anyway.) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_firearm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_firearm
- sdfx 13y ago
  I think what's scary to some is the perceived ease of production. Just download some files and hit print. The engineer in his shed at least has to know what he's doing. I'm not saying they are right and I have also no idea how hard it is to build an actual (metal)weapon from scratch, but the notion of "anyone can do this" seems to be a big factor in most stories.
  - nwh 13y ago
    Even if it was easy, you still need to go and find bullets, which is presumably just as hard and finding a gun. I wouldn't know, I've never had any inclination go anywhere near the things, and I don't know a single person in my normal life who owns one.
    - CapitalistCartr 13y ago
      Here in the USA, ammunition is sold on every street corner. But then, so are guns. Printed guns seems to be more of a technical challenge than anything practical. The police and press making a fuss seem to be looking for a juicy story more than any actual danger. Meanwhile D&D made me the Satanist I am today.
      - celticninja 13y ago
        here in the UK ammunition is as difficult to acquire as guns are, so printing a gun is not even half the battle.
        growupkids 13y ago
        Difficult for whom?
    - growupkids 13y ago
      Well, you can also make your own bullets. I cast my own lead bullets sometimes (in the garage, you have to heat the lead and vapor doesn't belong in the house), but most of the time just reload old scruffy brass. Or as another poster mentioned, just buy the ammo. Ammo really is the easy part.
  - baseten 13y ago
    This guy built an AK47 out of a shovel. (well the receiver and stock anyhow) Some of the other bits are a little more tricky. Vodka appears to be an important factor as well. http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DIY-Shovel-AK-photo-tsunami-warning!?p=2695046&viewfull=1#post2695046 http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DI...
    - frezik 13y ago
      What's most impressive about that build is that the AK47 design is optimized for specially-tooled mass production factories, not DIY. The AR15 is a more modular design that's easier for this sort of thing.
      - blakehaggerty 13y ago
        The AK47 receiver (which is the "gun" in the eyes of the law) is much simpler than the AR15. Its literally a piece of folded sheet metal. (I have built both in my garage from scratch)Now headspacing and barrel pressing with the AK is a bit more complicated but still there are ways around this work.
  - chiph 13y ago
    If you're willing to relax safety standards, you can easily do it with Home Depot parts. You just have to be mechanically inclined and somewhat clever. It doesn't have to look like a traditional firearm (grip, magazine, chamber, barrel, etc), all it has to be able to do is ignite a propellant and push a bullet down a tube.
  - 6d0debc071 13y ago
    Get a length of pipe that a shotgun shell will fit in - a slightly larger length of pipe that the smaller pipe will ride in smoothly, a cap for the larger length and a nail. Attach the nail to the cap - stick the cap onto the larger pipe. Place a shell in the smaller pipe and slide it into the larger one. It's not hugely safe, mind - but it's doable. You can see videos on youtube of people, even kids, who've made them. http://youtu.be/7Va87gB_4AI http://youtu.be/7Va87gB_4AI
  - esw 13y ago
    You're right - 'perceived' is the operative word here. People are imagining Star Trek replicators, and that's not even close to where we're at. The whole conversation around 3D printing reminds me a lot of personal computing in the 70s. It's a group of diehards hacking this stuff together, doing it because it's neat. There isn't a hell of a lot you can do with it yet, and no one can really predict what the future of it will be like, but everybody understands that it can be huge.
  - alecsmart1 13y ago
    Have a look at this documentary- http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DconsfGsXyA http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DconsfGsXyA It's extremely scary. In most countries, the right to owning ammunition is not allowed. The thought that in the future, my neighbor could make a gun using a home 3d printer makes me feel very unsafe.
    - growupkids 13y ago
      Your neighbor can build a bomb right now with beauty salon supplies. If you think restricting things is going to make you safe, you should be terrified.
    - anExcitedBeast 13y ago
      Your commute to work every day is much more dangerous than an armed neighbor will ever be. Source: survived countless armed neighbors and lost plenty of friends to cars. Also, statistics.
    - njharman 13y ago
      Why do you have irrational fear of your neighbor? That if they posess something dangerous you feel unsafe. Maybe you should realize your neighbors aren't out to get you.
- choult 13y ago
  I should imagine the "scary" part for security services is the fact that it's printed in plastic and therefore much harder to detect, not that it's home-made.
  - tobiasu 13y ago
    Nothing stops you from milling and turning plastic. Not only that, there are many heat resistant plastics on the market that are far stronger than some poorly bonded ABS.
  - lewispollard 13y ago
    I may be wrong here, but don't 3d printed guns still need a metal firing assembly to work? Would that be enough to detect?
    - Sanddancer 13y ago
      The Liberator derringer[1] which caused such a fuss a few months ago only needed a nail, which wouldn't be detected under most circumstances. I imagine that using an epoxy pin would probably be suitable given the gun's other single-fire characteristics. [1] It's single shot, uses a low-powered cartridge, and is a bitch to reload; calling it a handgun is an extreme stretch.
    - frezik 13y ago
      They put in a metal firing pin because 100% plastic guns are illegal in the US. It was technically capable of being completely plastic. But like the other poster said, it's a one-shot pistol with a weak cartridge. It's a long way from a practical firearm that will survive more than 10 shots.
  - GVIrish 13y ago
    No one should be alarmed by a non-metal firearm until someone figures out how to make plastic bullets.
    - D9u 13y ago
      http://www.guns.com/2013/01/02/flare-guns-as-weapons/ http://www.guns.com/2013/01/02/flare-guns-as-weapons/ Shotgun shells are mostly plastic.
tehwalrus 13y ago
If someone prints a part from a gun design, and then uses it for some unrelated purpose, would that be a crime under UK law? I think it wouldn't be, in fact, because plenty of things are "weapons" if used in one way and "not weapons" (and therefore legal to carry on the street) when used another way (prime example: not illegal to carry kitchen knives home from the shops, totally illegal to wave it around in the street.)
- robmcm 13y ago
  Not the parts, but at some point when you have enough parts it becomes a weapon. Guess it would be up to a judge to decide.
- BgSpnnrs 13y ago
  Pretty sure they'd have a hard time bringing about a prosecution with unassembled parts as it is. Slow news day is what this is.
  - tehwalrus 13y ago
    Police (and the home office) doing press releases telling us all the new ways criminals are going to hurt us (maybe) is really getting on my nerves.
- DanBC 13y ago
  Some guns and some parts of guns are banned, and this is an absolute offence. You find a gun in the attic and take it to the police? That's an offence. Having a part of a gun and suing it for something else would fall under that law. (I don't think all gun parts are covered). Knives are covered under a different law.
  - tehwalrus 13y ago
    then we clearly need a new law - if the police can't tell the difference between a 3D printer part and a gun part (or, indeed, a 3D printer part can be used in a gun, which is possible I suppose) then the existing law bans such 3D printers, which was clearly not its intention!
robmcm 13y ago
"Police in the UK this morning claimed to have seized parts of a 3D-printed gun, but it looks as if they may have jumped to the wrong conclusion." Really annoyed they didn't use the phrase, "jumped the gun". It's a Friday and everything...
- MartinCron 13y ago
  "Jumped the gun" has a different meaning and can't be used interchangeably with "jumped to the wrong conclusion" without further stilted language. This is what journalistic restraint looks like.
  - growupkids 13y ago
    So would you say he jumped the gun with his joke?
  - vidarh 13y ago
    Since when has the British press ever worried about letting stilted language get between them and a poor gag.
    - MartinCron 13y ago
      That's why I'm admiring their restraint this time!
- swombat 13y ago
  Here ya go: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/british-police-may-have-jumped-the-gun-on-3d-printed-weapon-1.1573252 http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/british-police-may-h...
JoeAltmaier 13y ago
"...not yet possible to print bullets" - ha! Its not yet possible to print anything but little plastic junk. If you could 'print' bullets, you could just make them anyway; you'd have to have all the raw materials at hand.
- tantalor 13y ago
  Indeed, the raw materials such as spent casing and powder are easily acquired. It's a lot cheaper too.
- mytrash 13y ago
  I know you are talking about hobby/consumer level printing here but it is entirely possible to print things other than little plastic junk. Metal SLS printing is very capable today.[1] Printing materials such as tungsten would make a very capable (however impractically expensive) bullet. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zApmGFDA6ow&noredirect=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zApmGFDA6ow&noredirect=1
thom 13y ago
The wise assassin disguises his 3D printed gun parts as 3D printing machine parts.
diydsp 13y ago
The egg on the police's face is nothing compared to their opportunity to scare the world with their fear-quote about "organized crime inventing the next generation of weapons with 3-d printers." ...As if 3-d printers are the next generation of weapons, and not their own government in cahoots with my own government. I'll quote Company Flow here: "It takes crazy engineering to fuck with anything from quantum physics to thought transmitters."
Zmetta 13y ago
"...it demonstrates that organised(sic) crime groups are acquiring technology...to produce the next generation of weapons." Do people really think that some relatively low resolution plastic extrusion will be used to manufacturer high tech weapons?
- talmand 13y ago
  People who know nothing about firearms and/or 3d printing are likely to believe it. People believe all kinds of stupid crap that come from what they perceive as an authority on the topic at hand.
- leephillips 13y ago
  Two things that might interest you: (1) "organised" is the most common spelling in the UK and is not incorrect anywhere; (2) when you use "sic" inside a quotation, you put it in square brackets, to show that it's not part of the original quotation but something added. Also, if the quote is in italics you set the "sic" in upright type, and vice versa, because it is a foreign (Latin) word. Otherwise, good point.
grumblepeet 13y ago
In the UK we don't let a thing like "the truth" get in the way of a good story. Some bits of plastic = major news event. Manchester police should be concentrating on the real guns that are circulating in that city. Last time I was there a taxi driver told me that the police let the gangs shoot each other, and only really get involved when they turn on innocent bystanders. Sounds like they have enough to do without making problems where they don't exist.
- talmand 13y ago
  That cannot possibly be true. In the US we are told that the UK is a utopia with no guns and everyone loves each other. You know, because guns are illegal there and all.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    The UK has one of the lowest gun crime rates in the world.
    - andyhmltn 13y ago
      Knife crime on the other hand...
      - ZoFreX 13y ago
        Has been dropping consistently since 1995? http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/apr/25/uk-crime-falls-official-figures http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/apr/25/uk-crime-falls-off... This is the most recent official statistics I can find: http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/Sn04304 http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/Sn04304
        andyhmltn 13y ago
        Fair enough... I didn't actually take the time to look up statistics. Thanks :)
    - 13y ago
ye 13y ago
I'm not a gun supporter, but the anti-gun crowd lost. Trying to control it through violent raids will be as successful as trying to stop people printing their own books on their own printers. Criminals who want to have guns will have them. End of story. The future has arrived. And it's not just guns. Assault rifles, military-grade miniguns, everything will be soon available to anybody. To the people who say "oh, anybody could do with with a few metal pipes and some machinery", it's not even close to pressing a "print" button and waiting a couple of hours.
- growupkids 13y ago
  Isn't that the point of DDs plastic gun project? To point out gun control can't work in a world with DIY mad easy?

68 points by kisamoto 13y ago

kh_hk 13y ago

The most important quote in the article: "It does look like the MakerBot part," says Stuart Offer of 3D-printing firm 3T RPD in Newbury, UK. "These 3D printed guns seem to have hit the headlines, but I've no idea why they take off so much," he says. "A little engineer in his shed with a mill down the bottom of the garden could make a proper metal barrel capable of firing a high-velocity bullet." And that's what I have been discussing with friends. Is printing a 3D gun that much easier than building a proto-gun with metal parts? I think they hit the headlines because the whole "the future is scary" appeals to the masses, or at least, "3D printed guns" sounds like something out of a movie (for instance, "In the Line of Fire").

Wingman4l7 13y ago
A home-made gun, aka a "zip gun"[1] is much easier to make -- but like you said, it doesn't sound nearly as scary as "any criminal can, with the press of a button, print out a gun at home!" (nevermind that it's not as simple as pressing a button, and they only work for a shot or two anyway.) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_firearm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_firearm
sdfx 13y ago
I think what's scary to some is the perceived ease of production. Just download some files and hit print. The engineer in his shed at least has to know what he's doing. I'm not saying they are right and I have also no idea how hard it is to build an actual (metal)weapon from scratch, but the notion of "anyone can do this" seems to be a big factor in most stories.
- nwh 13y ago
  Even if it was easy, you still need to go and find bullets, which is presumably just as hard and finding a gun. I wouldn't know, I've never had any inclination go anywhere near the things, and I don't know a single person in my normal life who owns one.
  - CapitalistCartr 13y ago
    Here in the USA, ammunition is sold on every street corner. But then, so are guns. Printed guns seems to be more of a technical challenge than anything practical. The police and press making a fuss seem to be looking for a juicy story more than any actual danger. Meanwhile D&D made me the Satanist I am today.
    - celticninja 13y ago
      here in the UK ammunition is as difficult to acquire as guns are, so printing a gun is not even half the battle.
      - growupkids 13y ago
        Difficult for whom?
  - growupkids 13y ago
    Well, you can also make your own bullets. I cast my own lead bullets sometimes (in the garage, you have to heat the lead and vapor doesn't belong in the house), but most of the time just reload old scruffy brass. Or as another poster mentioned, just buy the ammo. Ammo really is the easy part.
- baseten 13y ago
  This guy built an AK47 out of a shovel. (well the receiver and stock anyhow) Some of the other bits are a little more tricky. Vodka appears to be an important factor as well. http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DIY-Shovel-AK-photo-tsunami-warning!?p=2695046&viewfull=1#post2695046 http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DI...
  - frezik 13y ago
    What's most impressive about that build is that the AK47 design is optimized for specially-tooled mass production factories, not DIY. The AR15 is a more modular design that's easier for this sort of thing.
    - blakehaggerty 13y ago
      The AK47 receiver (which is the "gun" in the eyes of the law) is much simpler than the AR15. Its literally a piece of folded sheet metal. (I have built both in my garage from scratch)Now headspacing and barrel pressing with the AK is a bit more complicated but still there are ways around this work.
- chiph 13y ago
  If you're willing to relax safety standards, you can easily do it with Home Depot parts. You just have to be mechanically inclined and somewhat clever. It doesn't have to look like a traditional firearm (grip, magazine, chamber, barrel, etc), all it has to be able to do is ignite a propellant and push a bullet down a tube.
- 6d0debc071 13y ago
  Get a length of pipe that a shotgun shell will fit in - a slightly larger length of pipe that the smaller pipe will ride in smoothly, a cap for the larger length and a nail. Attach the nail to the cap - stick the cap onto the larger pipe. Place a shell in the smaller pipe and slide it into the larger one. It's not hugely safe, mind - but it's doable. You can see videos on youtube of people, even kids, who've made them. http://youtu.be/7Va87gB_4AI http://youtu.be/7Va87gB_4AI
- esw 13y ago
  You're right - 'perceived' is the operative word here. People are imagining Star Trek replicators, and that's not even close to where we're at. The whole conversation around 3D printing reminds me a lot of personal computing in the 70s. It's a group of diehards hacking this stuff together, doing it because it's neat. There isn't a hell of a lot you can do with it yet, and no one can really predict what the future of it will be like, but everybody understands that it can be huge.
- alecsmart1 13y ago
  Have a look at this documentary- http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DconsfGsXyA http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DconsfGsXyA It's extremely scary. In most countries, the right to owning ammunition is not allowed. The thought that in the future, my neighbor could make a gun using a home 3d printer makes me feel very unsafe.
  - growupkids 13y ago
    Your neighbor can build a bomb right now with beauty salon supplies. If you think restricting things is going to make you safe, you should be terrified.
  - anExcitedBeast 13y ago
    Your commute to work every day is much more dangerous than an armed neighbor will ever be. Source: survived countless armed neighbors and lost plenty of friends to cars. Also, statistics.
  - njharman 13y ago
    Why do you have irrational fear of your neighbor? That if they posess something dangerous you feel unsafe. Maybe you should realize your neighbors aren't out to get you.
choult 13y ago
I should imagine the "scary" part for security services is the fact that it's printed in plastic and therefore much harder to detect, not that it's home-made.
- tobiasu 13y ago
  Nothing stops you from milling and turning plastic. Not only that, there are many heat resistant plastics on the market that are far stronger than some poorly bonded ABS.
- lewispollard 13y ago
  I may be wrong here, but don't 3d printed guns still need a metal firing assembly to work? Would that be enough to detect?
  - Sanddancer 13y ago
    The Liberator derringer[1] which caused such a fuss a few months ago only needed a nail, which wouldn't be detected under most circumstances. I imagine that using an epoxy pin would probably be suitable given the gun's other single-fire characteristics. [1] It's single shot, uses a low-powered cartridge, and is a bitch to reload; calling it a handgun is an extreme stretch.
  - frezik 13y ago
    They put in a metal firing pin because 100% plastic guns are illegal in the US. It was technically capable of being completely plastic. But like the other poster said, it's a one-shot pistol with a weak cartridge. It's a long way from a practical firearm that will survive more than 10 shots.
- GVIrish 13y ago
  No one should be alarmed by a non-metal firearm until someone figures out how to make plastic bullets.
  - D9u 13y ago
    http://www.guns.com/2013/01/02/flare-guns-as-weapons/ http://www.guns.com/2013/01/02/flare-guns-as-weapons/ Shotgun shells are mostly plastic.

tehwalrus 13y ago

If someone prints a part from a gun design, and then uses it for some unrelated purpose, would that be a crime under UK law? I think it wouldn't be, in fact, because plenty of things are "weapons" if used in one way and "not weapons" (and therefore legal to carry on the street) when used another way (prime example: not illegal to carry kitchen knives home from the shops, totally illegal to wave it around in the street.)

robmcm 13y ago
Not the parts, but at some point when you have enough parts it becomes a weapon. Guess it would be up to a judge to decide.
BgSpnnrs 13y ago
Pretty sure they'd have a hard time bringing about a prosecution with unassembled parts as it is. Slow news day is what this is.
- tehwalrus 13y ago
  Police (and the home office) doing press releases telling us all the new ways criminals are going to hurt us (maybe) is really getting on my nerves.
DanBC 13y ago
Some guns and some parts of guns are banned, and this is an absolute offence. You find a gun in the attic and take it to the police? That's an offence. Having a part of a gun and suing it for something else would fall under that law. (I don't think all gun parts are covered). Knives are covered under a different law.
- tehwalrus 13y ago
  then we clearly need a new law - if the police can't tell the difference between a 3D printer part and a gun part (or, indeed, a 3D printer part can be used in a gun, which is possible I suppose) then the existing law bans such 3D printers, which was clearly not its intention!

robmcm 13y ago

"Police in the UK this morning claimed to have seized parts of a 3D-printed gun, but it looks as if they may have jumped to the wrong conclusion." Really annoyed they didn't use the phrase, "jumped the gun". It's a Friday and everything...

MartinCron 13y ago
"Jumped the gun" has a different meaning and can't be used interchangeably with "jumped to the wrong conclusion" without further stilted language. This is what journalistic restraint looks like.
- growupkids 13y ago
  So would you say he jumped the gun with his joke?
- vidarh 13y ago
  Since when has the British press ever worried about letting stilted language get between them and a poor gag.
  - MartinCron 13y ago
    That's why I'm admiring their restraint this time!
swombat 13y ago
Here ya go: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/british-police-may-have-jumped-the-gun-on-3d-printed-weapon-1.1573252 http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/british-police-may-h...

JoeAltmaier 13y ago

"...not yet possible to print bullets" - ha! Its not yet possible to print anything but little plastic junk. If you could 'print' bullets, you could just make them anyway; you'd have to have all the raw materials at hand.

tantalor 13y ago
Indeed, the raw materials such as spent casing and powder are easily acquired. It's a lot cheaper too.
mytrash 13y ago
I know you are talking about hobby/consumer level printing here but it is entirely possible to print things other than little plastic junk. Metal SLS printing is very capable today.[1] Printing materials such as tungsten would make a very capable (however impractically expensive) bullet. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zApmGFDA6ow&noredirect=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zApmGFDA6ow&noredirect=1

thom 13y ago

The wise assassin disguises his 3D printed gun parts as 3D printing machine parts.

diydsp 13y ago

The egg on the police's face is nothing compared to their opportunity to scare the world with their fear-quote about "organized crime inventing the next generation of weapons with 3-d printers." ...As if 3-d printers are the next generation of weapons, and not their own government in cahoots with my own government. I'll quote Company Flow here: "It takes crazy engineering to fuck with anything from quantum physics to thought transmitters."

Zmetta 13y ago

"...it demonstrates that organised(sic) crime groups are acquiring technology...to produce the next generation of weapons." Do people really think that some relatively low resolution plastic extrusion will be used to manufacturer high tech weapons?

talmand 13y ago
People who know nothing about firearms and/or 3d printing are likely to believe it. People believe all kinds of stupid crap that come from what they perceive as an authority on the topic at hand.
leephillips 13y ago
Two things that might interest you: (1) "organised" is the most common spelling in the UK and is not incorrect anywhere; (2) when you use "sic" inside a quotation, you put it in square brackets, to show that it's not part of the original quotation but something added. Also, if the quote is in italics you set the "sic" in upright type, and vice versa, because it is a foreign (Latin) word. Otherwise, good point.

grumblepeet 13y ago

In the UK we don't let a thing like "the truth" get in the way of a good story. Some bits of plastic = major news event. Manchester police should be concentrating on the real guns that are circulating in that city. Last time I was there a taxi driver told me that the police let the gangs shoot each other, and only really get involved when they turn on innocent bystanders. Sounds like they have enough to do without making problems where they don't exist.

talmand 13y ago
That cannot possibly be true. In the US we are told that the UK is a utopia with no guns and everyone loves each other. You know, because guns are illegal there and all.
- DanBC 13y ago
  The UK has one of the lowest gun crime rates in the world.
  - andyhmltn 13y ago
    Knife crime on the other hand...
    - ZoFreX 13y ago
      Has been dropping consistently since 1995? http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/apr/25/uk-crime-falls-official-figures http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/apr/25/uk-crime-falls-off... This is the most recent official statistics I can find: http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/Sn04304 http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/Sn04304
      - andyhmltn 13y ago
        Fair enough... I didn't actually take the time to look up statistics. Thanks :)
  - 13y ago

ye 13y ago

I'm not a gun supporter, but the anti-gun crowd lost. Trying to control it through violent raids will be as successful as trying to stop people printing their own books on their own printers. Criminals who want to have guns will have them. End of story. The future has arrived. And it's not just guns. Assault rifles, military-grade miniguns, everything will be soon available to anybody. To the people who say "oh, anybody could do with with a few metal pipes and some machinery", it's not even close to pressing a "print" button and waiting a couple of hours.

growupkids 13y ago
Isn't that the point of DDs plastic gun project? To point out gun control can't work in a world with DIY mad easy?