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I remember this post being made here on HN around when the revelations first started coming out and we were still trying to collect ourselves and adjust to the

by pvnick 13y ago

I remember this post being made here on HN around when the revelations first started coming out and we were still trying to collect ourselves and adjust to the new realities of omnipresent surveillance. It was on the front page and had a ton of upvotes. I really hope that Snowden has evidence of this. Whether he does or not is just about make-it-or-break-it for whether we'll see any real reform.

jessaustin 13y ago
I can imagine a scenario in which even rock solid evidence of that sort wouldn't lead to real reform. "Hello Senator thanks so much for meeting with us today. We understand you're considering co-sponsoring that new 'privacy' bill. We just wanted to take a few minutes of your time to emphasize some points that we feel have some bearing on the bill in question. "I have here in front of me a few hard copies of some of your communications. I must say, they make for some interesting reading..."
- pestaa 13y ago
  Sounds like more reason to step up and pass the bill.
- FBT 13y ago
  For all that the US government has done some really nasty stuff, I don't believe they are really evil people. They are doing what they think is best for their country, based on their ideas of what is best. No one is rubbing their hands together and cackling over the evil laws that they past. Given this, congress has passed some pretty nasty stuff. But they were doing it for all the best reasons. They are honorable people, who likely wouldn't fold to blackmail, if they thought that they were being blackmailed into doing something bad for the US. I respect them that much, at least.
  - xradionut 13y ago
    "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Why don't you dig around and look at all the pieces of information, abuses, problems not corrected, situations allowed to spiral out of control, the waste of trillions of dollars, the cover ups, the intimidation, the assassinations, the governments overthrown, the hundreds of thousands of dead in other countries..., then come have a discussion about evil and the folks the control our government.
  - sillysaurus2 13y ago
    They are honorable people, who likely wouldn't fold to blackmail, if they thought that they were being blackmailed into doing something bad for the US. I respect them that much, at least. I'm curious to know your age. I used to feel as you do, but as people get older they tend to get more cynical. In particular, the idea that Americans are intrinsically honorable died an abrupt death in my mind after studying some of our history. Blackmail is one of the most basic tools in politics, and it's just that: a tool. Framing an effective tool as evil is beside the point, because an effective tool is always going to end up being used. And indeed we see that it's been used astonishingly often since WWII (and certainly before that as well). The most obvious example is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover but there are many more. For what it's worth, the founding fathers probably wouldn't want you to assume our government are honorable people who wouldn't fold to blackmail. They would encourage you to assume the worst, and then be pleasantly surprised if your expectations were proven wrong. Thus far, the evidence has been pretty grim. Snowden seems to share your ideals and belief system (e.g. belief in honor for honor's sake and "people will do what's right, not merely what's lucrative") yet he was so offended by what he ultimately discovered at the NSA that he fled the country and left his life behind in order to expose it. In other words, he did what he thought was best for his country based on his ideas of what is best, and his ideals seem to be pretty close to yours.
junto 13y ago
Makes sense as to why Obama flip-flopped on reigning in the NSA. Blackmail.
- w_t_payne 13y ago
  Hope not. Possible, though.
  - Zigurd 13y ago
    100% of every possibility regarding NSA surveillance has gone from "That's possible, but surely they wouldn't" to "Wow, they did, and did it bigger than anyone imagined." Why wouldn't that include suppression of political initiatives that could interfere with the NSA's mission?
    - meowface 13y ago
      It's conceivable, but it would be a considerable step-up from what has been leaked so far. I am more willing to accept the possibility if it's shown to be true that they've been conducting surveillance on US politicians and officials. Not that spying on foreign politicians is good or moral, but the reasons are different at least.
      - Zigurd 13y ago
        Why would you consider it "a considerable step up?" We already know that surveillance in the US is pervasive. And that includes politicians, judges, and everyone else in government. It's just a small step to using that information for safeguarding NSA's mission.
        meowface 13y ago
        Well, you're suggesting they are actively engaging in blackmail and political manipulation to retain their position. Even if they do have the information to blackmail in many cases, it does not mean they actually are. Perhaps I'm just naive, but I like to think at their core they're not so immoral as to degrade themselves to that sort of behavior.

by pvnick 13y ago

jessaustin 13y ago

I can imagine a scenario in which even rock solid evidence of that sort wouldn't lead to real reform. "Hello Senator thanks so much for meeting with us today. We understand you're considering co-sponsoring that new 'privacy' bill. We just wanted to take a few minutes of your time to emphasize some points that we feel have some bearing on the bill in question. "I have here in front of me a few hard copies of some of your communications. I must say, they make for some interesting reading..."

pestaa 13y ago
Sounds like more reason to step up and pass the bill.
FBT 13y ago
For all that the US government has done some really nasty stuff, I don't believe they are really evil people. They are doing what they think is best for their country, based on their ideas of what is best. No one is rubbing their hands together and cackling over the evil laws that they past. Given this, congress has passed some pretty nasty stuff. But they were doing it for all the best reasons. They are honorable people, who likely wouldn't fold to blackmail, if they thought that they were being blackmailed into doing something bad for the US. I respect them that much, at least.
- xradionut 13y ago
  "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Why don't you dig around and look at all the pieces of information, abuses, problems not corrected, situations allowed to spiral out of control, the waste of trillions of dollars, the cover ups, the intimidation, the assassinations, the governments overthrown, the hundreds of thousands of dead in other countries..., then come have a discussion about evil and the folks the control our government.
- sillysaurus2 13y ago
  They are honorable people, who likely wouldn't fold to blackmail, if they thought that they were being blackmailed into doing something bad for the US. I respect them that much, at least. I'm curious to know your age. I used to feel as you do, but as people get older they tend to get more cynical. In particular, the idea that Americans are intrinsically honorable died an abrupt death in my mind after studying some of our history. Blackmail is one of the most basic tools in politics, and it's just that: a tool. Framing an effective tool as evil is beside the point, because an effective tool is always going to end up being used. And indeed we see that it's been used astonishingly often since WWII (and certainly before that as well). The most obvious example is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover but there are many more. For what it's worth, the founding fathers probably wouldn't want you to assume our government are honorable people who wouldn't fold to blackmail. They would encourage you to assume the worst, and then be pleasantly surprised if your expectations were proven wrong. Thus far, the evidence has been pretty grim. Snowden seems to share your ideals and belief system (e.g. belief in honor for honor's sake and "people will do what's right, not merely what's lucrative") yet he was so offended by what he ultimately discovered at the NSA that he fled the country and left his life behind in order to expose it. In other words, he did what he thought was best for his country based on his ideas of what is best, and his ideals seem to be pretty close to yours.

junto 13y ago

Makes sense as to why Obama flip-flopped on reigning in the NSA. Blackmail.

w_t_payne 13y ago
Hope not. Possible, though.
- Zigurd 13y ago
  100% of every possibility regarding NSA surveillance has gone from "That's possible, but surely they wouldn't" to "Wow, they did, and did it bigger than anyone imagined." Why wouldn't that include suppression of political initiatives that could interfere with the NSA's mission?
  - meowface 13y ago
    It's conceivable, but it would be a considerable step-up from what has been leaked so far. I am more willing to accept the possibility if it's shown to be true that they've been conducting surveillance on US politicians and officials. Not that spying on foreign politicians is good or moral, but the reasons are different at least.
    - Zigurd 13y ago
      Why would you consider it "a considerable step up?" We already know that surveillance in the US is pervasive. And that includes politicians, judges, and everyone else in government. It's just a small step to using that information for safeguarding NSA's mission.
      - meowface 13y ago
        Well, you're suggesting they are actively engaging in blackmail and political manipulation to retain their position. Even if they do have the information to blackmail in many cases, it does not mean they actually are. Perhaps I'm just naive, but I like to think at their core they're not so immoral as to degrade themselves to that sort of behavior.