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Quite interesting thank you for sharing. The idea that constraints can guide creativity. It reminds me of pg's essay on distractions. I've got something of a d

Quite interesting thank you for sharing. The idea that constraints can guide creativity. It reminds me of pg's essay on distractions. I've got something of a different view. I was never limited TV or game consumption. My parents had the mindset of 'you'll have to learn to self moderation at some point, better to do it when the stakes are small'. They wanted me to learn to recognize when something I enjoyed was having a negative impact. They would guide me subtly by asking me to think about time spent in various areas and what that meant. Now as an adult I've not struggled with moderation in any area. Never got pulled into MMO style games, diet isn't a challenge etc... My biggest worry is that I work too much and don't make enough time for fun. I remember finding it odd when I'd visit a friends house and they were only allowed a certain number of sodas per day, and had regimented rules about computer time. Later on as adults, these friends almost universally struggled with various addictions real and digital (I've seen lives ruined by MMOs). To me it appeared that they weren't able to manage their own desires without outside inputs. Obviously it was a different experience for you.

GuiA 13y ago
Ultimately, all humans are pretty different, and there is likely no one size fits all. My younger brother always had a really hard time with the constraints my parent set - he would watch TV and play video games in secret, and even sneakily used their credit cards to pay for the MMO he played (he was in his early teens, and my parents didn't give us any allowance- they'd just give us some money if we wanted to go out with friends, or if we wanted a book they'd buy it for us. That worked for me, but not him). At some point my parents did try to not set any limits on his TV watching habits etc., thinking he would learn to self-moderate, as you described; for those few years, he basically spent his life in front of the TV and video games, doing literally nothing else. He's in his early 20s now, and still having a hard time with such matters. What worked for you may or may not have worked for me, and definitely didn't work on my brother; what worked for me would have probably not worked for you, and definitely did not work for my brother. Humans are interesting creatures, aren't they :) I had one or two good friends whose parents were more like yours, and I loved going to their house because we would play video games until 4am and eat pizza and drink unlimited Coca Cola. Doing this once or twice a month was like heaven for me, and my parents were aware of it but were fine with it happening- I guess they thought "as long as it's not in my house and not too often, it's fine". However, one of those friends did not do immensely well later in college/life, to which my parents respond "I'm not surprised". How I wish those questions had clear cut black/white answers :P
- rustynails 13y ago
  You sound like I imagine my son in 10 years ... The reason I occasionally let him stay with friends for the junk food/games/TV binge with friends is so that he learns all types of experiences. I don't believe in banning anything, just regulating. How else can we understand our world if we don't experience it for ourselves? If I were to host the junk food/TV/games binges, I'd have to buy the console and games and stock the junk food ... Things that I just don't want to do .. So it's easier to let someone else do it. In return, I take others kids on bush walks, to BBQs, roller skating, etc - so their kids get to do something different too. There may be some "it doesn't happen in my house" as you suggest, but it's not my primary or secondary motivator.
FLUX-YOU 13y ago
Oh man, if there's one thing I could change in my childhood, it'd be trading half of my gaming time with programming time. I was unfortunately growing up in the golden age of web programming and games and 'chose' the latter. Unfortunately, you can't do much with just 20 years of gaming experience. My parents mostly let me do whatever because I already had a skill then (basic tech support) which we thought would guarantee a self-supporting job after college... Nope. It's becoming increasingly important to get college right the first time through if only because of insane, rising costs. If it were cheap, I could probably find a class on self-moderation. On the bright side, I find most of today's games boring, so it's rather easy to get productive.
- coldpie 13y ago
  Consider community or tech college. It's still not cheap, but it's way more affordable than a university or state college. They also tend to be more flexible and understanding since most of their students are part-time. Employers care most about your skills, and a year or two at a community college can give you more non-academic skills than any Computer Science bachelor degree.
rustynails 13y ago
Your observations are interesting. I'm in the early days of this process with my kids, but I do limit their tv and game time. I've found (like the grandparent poster) that an absence of TV and games leads to other pursuits: sports, reading, programming, writing books, etc. To give you an example: I just got the national school results. My son kicked ass in a school that underperformed. One of the key differences I've observed is ... TV and games. Other parents buy the books and encourage kids to do homework, but TV and games are too tempting for developing / young minds. The other thing I notice is that after a while, routine kicks in and study has become fun for my kids. The other obvious issue I notice is the mental fatigue that my kids have suffered when staying with friends for lengthy gaming sessions. We talked about his they felt, why they felt that way and side effects (short attention, lethargy, etc). But, they had no regrets and wanted to do it again. Reminds me of smokers... They know it's bad, but don't care. When my kids are old enough, they can be responsible for themselves. Until then, they'll have to live with my constraints, healthy minds and bodies. I'll just have to accept your possible scenario that it will all collapse into a screaming heap in their early adulthood. Let's say, I'm dubious about your claim, particularly as most levels of freedom and responsibility are gradual with most kids ... But I have seen stranger things.
- johngalt 13y ago
  Having thought more about this. I'm leaning more towards the pro-limitations side of the argument. Clearly games are more addictive now. I doubt many lives were ruined over pac-man and missile command. If young me had grown up around WoW perhaps I'd be different? You mention the gaming binges at friend's houses. If you have the opportunity, ask the parents if those marathon sessions happen on a normal night. There are a few instances in my youth were I recall overindulgence, and most were at the urging of friends. Friends who were manic in their desire to get as much time in as possible before their parents returned. The idea of 'limits against overuse don't apply the second you leave my house' is precisely what got many of my friends in trouble later in life. Merely trying to assist with perspective. Please don't take this as a critique of your view (as I'm in agreement) or parenting ability (congrats on the high test scores). >I'm dubious about your claim, particularly as most levels of freedom and responsibility are gradual with most kids ... But I have seen stranger things. I'd like to point out that the scenario I describe wasn't a free for all. Falling short of expectations was met with discipline and restrictions as any child could expect. Simply that regulation of tv/game time was a personal choice provided that expectations were met. The important part is the guidance. Finding the best way to show the kiddos how to recognize a bad habit. I'm thinking a good middle ground would be a discussion where the time limits are decided, but then applied universally. Something doesn't stop being a bad habit just because you're at a friends house.

GuiA 13y ago

Ultimately, all humans are pretty different, and there is likely no one size fits all. My younger brother always had a really hard time with the constraints my parent set - he would watch TV and play video games in secret, and even sneakily used their credit cards to pay for the MMO he played (he was in his early teens, and my parents didn't give us any allowance- they'd just give us some money if we wanted to go out with friends, or if we wanted a book they'd buy it for us. That worked for me, but not him). At some point my parents did try to not set any limits on his TV watching habits etc., thinking he would learn to self-moderate, as you described; for those few years, he basically spent his life in front of the TV and video games, doing literally nothing else. He's in his early 20s now, and still having a hard time with such matters. What worked for you may or may not have worked for me, and definitely didn't work on my brother; what worked for me would have probably not worked for you, and definitely did not work for my brother. Humans are interesting creatures, aren't they :) I had one or two good friends whose parents were more like yours, and I loved going to their house because we would play video games until 4am and eat pizza and drink unlimited Coca Cola. Doing this once or twice a month was like heaven for me, and my parents were aware of it but were fine with it happening- I guess they thought "as long as it's not in my house and not too often, it's fine". However, one of those friends did not do immensely well later in college/life, to which my parents respond "I'm not surprised". How I wish those questions had clear cut black/white answers :P

rustynails 13y ago
You sound like I imagine my son in 10 years ... The reason I occasionally let him stay with friends for the junk food/games/TV binge with friends is so that he learns all types of experiences. I don't believe in banning anything, just regulating. How else can we understand our world if we don't experience it for ourselves? If I were to host the junk food/TV/games binges, I'd have to buy the console and games and stock the junk food ... Things that I just don't want to do .. So it's easier to let someone else do it. In return, I take others kids on bush walks, to BBQs, roller skating, etc - so their kids get to do something different too. There may be some "it doesn't happen in my house" as you suggest, but it's not my primary or secondary motivator.

FLUX-YOU 13y ago

Oh man, if there's one thing I could change in my childhood, it'd be trading half of my gaming time with programming time. I was unfortunately growing up in the golden age of web programming and games and 'chose' the latter. Unfortunately, you can't do much with just 20 years of gaming experience. My parents mostly let me do whatever because I already had a skill then (basic tech support) which we thought would guarantee a self-supporting job after college... Nope. It's becoming increasingly important to get college right the first time through if only because of insane, rising costs. If it were cheap, I could probably find a class on self-moderation. On the bright side, I find most of today's games boring, so it's rather easy to get productive.

coldpie 13y ago
Consider community or tech college. It's still not cheap, but it's way more affordable than a university or state college. They also tend to be more flexible and understanding since most of their students are part-time. Employers care most about your skills, and a year or two at a community college can give you more non-academic skills than any Computer Science bachelor degree.

rustynails 13y ago

Your observations are interesting. I'm in the early days of this process with my kids, but I do limit their tv and game time. I've found (like the grandparent poster) that an absence of TV and games leads to other pursuits: sports, reading, programming, writing books, etc. To give you an example: I just got the national school results. My son kicked ass in a school that underperformed. One of the key differences I've observed is ... TV and games. Other parents buy the books and encourage kids to do homework, but TV and games are too tempting for developing / young minds. The other thing I notice is that after a while, routine kicks in and study has become fun for my kids. The other obvious issue I notice is the mental fatigue that my kids have suffered when staying with friends for lengthy gaming sessions. We talked about his they felt, why they felt that way and side effects (short attention, lethargy, etc). But, they had no regrets and wanted to do it again. Reminds me of smokers... They know it's bad, but don't care. When my kids are old enough, they can be responsible for themselves. Until then, they'll have to live with my constraints, healthy minds and bodies. I'll just have to accept your possible scenario that it will all collapse into a screaming heap in their early adulthood. Let's say, I'm dubious about your claim, particularly as most levels of freedom and responsibility are gradual with most kids ... But I have seen stranger things.

johngalt 13y ago
Having thought more about this. I'm leaning more towards the pro-limitations side of the argument. Clearly games are more addictive now. I doubt many lives were ruined over pac-man and missile command. If young me had grown up around WoW perhaps I'd be different? You mention the gaming binges at friend's houses. If you have the opportunity, ask the parents if those marathon sessions happen on a normal night. There are a few instances in my youth were I recall overindulgence, and most were at the urging of friends. Friends who were manic in their desire to get as much time in as possible before their parents returned. The idea of 'limits against overuse don't apply the second you leave my house' is precisely what got many of my friends in trouble later in life. Merely trying to assist with perspective. Please don't take this as a critique of your view (as I'm in agreement) or parenting ability (congrats on the high test scores). >I'm dubious about your claim, particularly as most levels of freedom and responsibility are gradual with most kids ... But I have seen stranger things. I'd like to point out that the scenario I describe wasn't a free for all. Falling short of expectations was met with discipline and restrictions as any child could expect. Simply that regulation of tv/game time was a personal choice provided that expectations were met. The important part is the guidance. Finding the best way to show the kiddos how to recognize a bad habit. I'm thinking a good middle ground would be a discussion where the time limits are decided, but then applied universally. Something doesn't stop being a bad habit just because you're at a friends house.