6 ms·

Can Electric Bikes Ever Go Legal?

35 points by ck2 13y ago

ck2 13y ago
My electric bicycle you can clearly see the huge hub (if you know what you are looking for). But my model is like 5 years old. I saw a modern electric bike the other day and you'd never know, except the person is going as fast as Armstrong on steroids without breaking a sweat.
- dagw 13y ago
  What kind of bike was that? All the electric bikes I've seen travel quite a bit slower than what a trained cyclist can do on a decent bike. Their main selling point is "not breaking a sweat", not "go really fast".
  - ck2 13y ago
    My "old school" brushed motor electric bicycle can do 25mph, without pedal assitance. Apparently they have new brushless motors that fit into the rear hubs that can do 30+ mph. Beyond that it is only a wind resistance problem. There are hobbyists with 50mph electric bicycles which sounds crazy.
    - masklinn 13y ago
      Even under lax US federal law, these are not "bicycles" and are classified as motor vehicles. Public Law 107-319 defined "low-speed electrical vehicles" and altered the motor vehicle safety standards to make these low-speed vehicles not considered motor vehicles. Low-speed electrical vehicles are defined as: 1. two- or three-wheeled 2. fully operable pedals 3. less than 750 watts (1hp) 4. maximum speed (power-on-demand) of 20mph on a level surface with a rider of 170 pounds If it goes at 50mph, it's an electric motorcycle.
    - dagw 13y ago
      Those sound more like electric mopeds than electric bicycles.
  - radiorental 13y ago
    This is my ebike. 32mph without pedaling. http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2841/10328825565_ef951c4367_b.jpg http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2841/10328825565_ef951c4367_b.... The selling point for me (or rather, why I built it) is that I can do my 40 mile round trip every day of the week. If I try to use my road bike alone I am burning 2+ hours a day commuting and fatiguing before the end of the week. I will say, this thing would be lethal in the city. I commute on country roads and probably the single most important point - it's safer. My motercycle is the safest, cars do not pass me, reduced 'collision opportunity'. My road bike is my most dangerous mode of transport. Cars constantly pass me as I do 20mph. Either cutting right in front of me or veering way to far out. The ebike is somewhere in between and I have not been fitter since starting to use it. I'm not touching the legality debate with a barge poll.
    - ck2 13y ago
      Yeah that is the old-school kind of motor hub, I have that on the front wheel. The one I saw was way smaller than that. Must be some kind of motor evolution. The problem with going that fast is you better be looking way in front of you because things come up fast. It also appears you do not have disc brakes which is dangerous not to have at those speeds.
      - radiorental 13y ago
        I have avid shorty cantilever breaks on the front. As good as discs when dry and better in the wet.
ollysb 13y ago
Maybe the pedestrians could you know, learn how to judge the speed of moving objects?! Plenty of couriers would be pedaling around on fixies at 20mph or more anyway so I'm not really sure where the distinction lies.
- ck2 13y ago
  What's interesting is it not just illegal in NYC, it is illegal in the entire state of New York. I can kinda see where it might be a problem in NYC because it is really easy to overvolt electric bikes, a 20-25mph model can become a 30+ mph flying machine that never gets tired. But why not allow electric assisted 3-wheel vending carts? Or electric 3-wheel taxis.
- buro9 13y ago
  I use bright (static, non-flashing) lights for this reason. It's not that people cannot judge speed, but there seems to be an uncertainty principle at play that is created by the assumptions of the person. The key assumption is: "It's a bicycle and therefore moving at barely above walking speed.". So the 50ms glance is not repeated and no actual attempt is made to assess the speed (and direction - must be the predictable one parallel to the road!) of the cyclist. Using lights changes this. By making oneself more visible, even in bright daylight, to the point that the light catches the attention. Then the person looking will look for a longer period of time and get a sense of speed and direction. It's important not to use flashing lights as people tend to be crap at determining your location accurately and that throws off any calculation about speed and direction. As a cyclist the effect is very noticeable. Cars no longer pull out from side roads in my line of travel, and pedestrians wait where they previously would've thrown themselves into the road. I don't see why NY couldn't just mandate that all electric-assist bicycles be fitted with non-flashing lamps that must be permanently lit whilst the electric assist is activated.
  - stcredzero 13y ago
    > The key assumption is: "It's a bicycle and therefore moving at barely above walking speed.". It is possible to, you know, perceive speed. It happens when people hit and catch balls in sports. This is a criticism of people, not your idea. What does the data say, I wonder? All I've seen here on HN are anecdotes. There is research supporting lights aiding visibility in cars. Are there numbers for the increased risk with electric bikes?
Cthulhu_ 13y ago
I live in the Netherlands, we have dedicated bike lanes and decent cyclists. Electrical bicycles can indeed be deceptive, as in you see an elderly lady zipping by whilst slowly pedaling (usually the elderly ladies are only barely faster on bike than on foot), and since they don't make extra noises they can be a bit dangerous if you don't look out. But it's still just an assisted bicycle. Before electrical bikes, we had assisted bicycles with a small two-stroke combustion engine, the Spartamet [0]. These were iirc registered in a separate category, 'snorfietsen', which is a class lower than mopeds (TIL those would be called 'mopas') [1], or basically, 'assisted bicycles'. These do need to have an insurance registration plate (number plate) and some visual indications, but a helmet is not required. [0] http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartamet http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartamet (Dutch, no English version yet) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped
- masklinn 13y ago
  > But it's still just an assisted bicycle. Depends on the country. In the EU, it can only be assistance (the user must be pedaling at all times), it must cut-off completely at 25km/h and the engine can not produce more than 250W, but that's not the case everywhere. IIRC, the UK has a lower power output (200W) but allows power-on-demand, and in the US the top speed is 32km/h (20mph), up to 750W, and and AFAIK they don't require pedaling either.
  - jobigoud 13y ago
    Switzerland allows 500w motors. I so wish that the EU would follow this. 500w can fit in a motor that doesn't make your bicycle look like a moped and the battery can be taken home for charge in the evening. The 25km/h and 250w limit is what is preventing me from getting one. I don't really see the point when I can reach that with human energy.
    - masklinn 13y ago
      > I don't really see the point when I can reach that with human energy. That is, in fact, exactly the point. That is why they are bicycles, not electric mopeds or scooters. The point is to do the same thing you could do before on your own, except with less sweat and fatigue through electrical assistance.
Spooky23 13y ago
I think the law (by accident) has a good point. These things move fast and people on bikes are pretty awful at paying any attention to traffic laws. (Mostly because the roads aren't engineered for them) These things are great until you get run down by some idiot cutting a streetcorner on a sidewalk. These things should be registered like any other motorized vehicle and have a license plate.
- notjosh 13y ago
  > These things move fast and people on bikes are pretty awful at paying any attention to traffic laws. (Mostly because the roads aren't engineered for them) These things are great until you get run down by some idiot cutting a streetcorner on a sidewalk Punish the crime of running people down, not of people wanting an alternative form of transport.
  - stcredzero 13y ago
    Make it a big deal to hit someone while acting like a daredevil and make it a bigger deal to hit and run.
- antimagic 13y ago
  I'm not sure how your proposed solution is supposed to fix the problem you identify. The "idiot"s will still cut across street corners, even with a plate attached. Also, I'm dubious that the purported problem is a big enough problem to society that it outweighs the benefit (healthier populace, reduced traffic, reduce pollution). Do you plate requirements also apply to rollerbladers? They go at least as fast, don't even have brakes, and are much more likely to be found up on the sidewalk than any electric bike will ever be (sidewalks are annoying, they're full of these obstacles called pedestrians - much better to ride on the road where the obstacles move faster than you for the most part).
  - dragandj 13y ago
    But with a plate attached, he is much more likely to be identified and found by the police if he causes a serious incident.
c0g 13y ago
As a pedal- and motor- cyclist in Oxford (city big into bikes in the UK), these electric bikes really get to me. We have lots of amenities for pedal cycles to improve their experience of the roads which are (rightly) unavailable to the faster and more dangerous to pedestrians motorcycles. Seeing these electric assistance bikes caning it along at an unrealistic speed by disinterested and distracted riders makes me think they should be classed as motorcycles with all the restrictions/responsibilities. Edit: For example, riders of a motorcycle or moped must carry insurance and wear a helmet. Anything over 50cc and you need to pass a training course to teach the rules of the road and basic manoeuvres. Cyclists do not need to pass anything (or pay vehicle tax...). I'm unsure about my opinion on making human powered vehicles abide by licensing/insurance requirements, but powered vehicles really should do.
some1else 13y ago
Does this apply to FlyKly? http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/flykly/flykly-smart-wheel http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/flykly/flykly-smart-whee...
- CountHackulus 13y ago
  It's a bike that has more than just pedal power, so yes.
betterunix 13y ago
So pedestrians in New York City are able to J-walk, ignore walk signals, weave around moving cars, buses, and trucks, but it is asking too much for them to avoid a powered bicycle? How about we hold cyclists responsible for hitting people -- regardless of what kind of bicycle they ride -- and leave it at that?
- pavel_lishin 13y ago
  I imagine that a large part of the danger is that they're silent - it's easier to avoid a loud truck or car than it is to hear a silent bike approaching at the same speeds. This is something that'll be tackled as soon as electric cars start being common place, though.
- Nicholas_C 13y ago
  >So pedestrians in New York City are able to J-walk, ignore walk signals, weave around moving cars, buses, and trucks J-walking is illegal in NYC as far as I know.
  - 001sky 13y ago
    J-walking is illegal in NYC as far as I know. Shoes don't jaywalk, people jaywalk... Hence: shoes are legal.
jt2190 13y ago
> You can use a hand-operated throttle or, on higher-end > models, a power-assist function that kicks on the > electric motor when you start turning the pedals. Perhaps making a rule that says that the power available to a "bicycle" can only be controlled through the pedals is what is needed. This would allow power-assist type "bicycles", but would not allow for a no-pedaling, hand-operated throttle type. (Those could be classified as "electric vehicles" or something else.) (Also, maybe the maximum wattage of power assistance should be capped to keep it within the range possible from healthy humans.)
- g8oz 13y ago
  The controller caps the speed at 32 km/h or 20 mph by law. That's more than adequate.
  - masklinn 13y ago
    US federal law is 32km/h, 750W and power on demand (no need for the user to pedal). That's closer to a moped than to a bike.
    - nols 13y ago
      I know some states regulate e-bikes as mopeds, here in MI they're treated the same; need to register and plate them, wear a helmet if you're too young, and get a license (I think the license is also based on age).
- masklinn 13y ago
  That's already EU law: only assistance (no power-on-demand), capped at 25km/h (~15mph) and 250W maximum. US fed law allows power-on-demand, 32km/h (20mph) and 750W blocks. That's closer to a slow scooter than a bike.
  - jt2190 13y ago
    Interesting. It seems like the main complaint from New York lawmakers is that these vehicles look like bicycles but behave in a decidedly non-bicycle manner, i.e. accelerate when the rider isn't pedaling, accelerate faster than a typical bicycle, achieve a top speed that is somewhat faster, etc. Are the EU regulations good at bringing power-assist bicycles back into the normal operating rages for regular bicycles? Or is rider behavior still very different?
nlh 13y ago
The lawmakers opposed to these bikes (and a lot of the commenters here) all are operating under the stated assumption that the bikes' speed ("unpredictable") makes them a major risk to pedestrians. Is there actually any evidence of this? Anyone have any links or details about increased rates of accidents, etc. having to do with e-bikes? I can accept the premise if there's data supporting it. Otherwise this sounds suspiciously like "This sounds different/risky, therefore I don't like it."
- ripter 13y ago
  I wish most laws required scientific proof and if future studies prove differently the law would be revoked.
  - oftenwrong 13y ago
    That would be a great way to increase the amount of fraudulent studies being published.
Zigurd 13y ago
I'm surprised at the resistance to e-bikes. E-bikes are a practical and cost-effective electric vehicle for the urban masses. The batteries are usually removable and can be charged in an apartment or office. They take up very little room on the road and parked. Replacing a car with an e-bike is a huge win. E-bikes are a mature product due to the fact that you can't get a license for gas scooters in cities in China, and they have already gone through several product generations in China. They would be a huge improvement over the prevalence of gas scooters in some cities. I hope they become mainstream in American cities. E-bikes are the best chance for bicycles to become mainstream in city traffic. If they do become a significant part of traffic, they will have a large positive effect on safety for all cyclists.
- riggins 13y ago
  I agree. the pros seem to far outweigh the cons.
- scrabble 13y ago
  As someone who spends a lot of time driving, I really don't like E-bikes. I also have no problem with pedal bikes. They take up very little room on the road and parked. This is my problem. I do not find this to be the case at all. They are becoming more popular in my city, and the people riding them seem to feel the need to take up an entire traffic lane with their bike. Since these bikes are generally not as fast as a car, and do not accelerate as quickly they end up being a large nuisance to the traffic system and actually prevent things from running smoothly.
  - EliRivers 13y ago
    people riding them seem to feel the need to take up an entire traffic lane with their bike. In the UK, the highway code indicates that if you're overtaking a bicycle, you should in fact leave as much room as if it was a car; that is, what you're complaining about is intentional in the UK. I know that many cyclists (in other countries as well) deliberately take up the entire lane for their own safety.
  - lightbritefight 13y ago
ryankshaw 13y ago
Somewhat off topic but I've been wanting to to get into an electric cycle. There's been a lot of innovation in the space recently. I've seen some kickstarters and stuff. I feel like we're on the brink between clunky, expensive proof-of-concepts to good, solid, mass-produced (and thus more economically viable) products. any recommendations?
mistercow 13y ago
If the problem is that you can be at top speed without peddling, why not just require that the peddles turn at a speed proportional to the power output of the motor? The rider would rest their feet on the peddles and expend no effort, and it would give the same signalling to pedestrians.
- masklinn 13y ago
  > If the problem is that you can be at top speed without peddling Not necessarily. > why not just require that the peddles turn at a speed proportional to the power output of the motor? EU laws require exactly that, and that's what the "pedelec" sub-category of e-bikes do: pedaling assistance rather than power-on-demand (note: there's also the s-pedelec sub-category, which also only does assist but has a more powerful engine and maximum assisted speed than allowed for the "bicycle" status in the EU, they are thus classified as mopeds if not motorcycles)
clarry 13y ago
This is somewhat unrelated but, relevant enough I guess.. In Finland a bicycle must be equipped with (among other things) two reflectors on each pedal, on the front face as well as on back. Unless it's daylight and the bike weighs less than 10 kilos and has at least N (can't remember the exact number) gears. My bike is a fixed gear and I use clipless pedals. Even if it were technically feasible to mount reflectors on the pedals, it'd be pointless because the shoe snaps on to the pedal, hiding it almost entirely. My bike is therefore illegal.
- gohrt 13y ago
  Put reflectors on your shoes.
thehme 13y ago
Hate the pop ups (adds or something on this article link). FF is black, so I won't waste more time on it. In any case, sounds a if e-bikes are aka e-scooters? Doesn't an e-bike defeat the purpose of a bike?
- masklinn 13y ago
  > In any case, sounds a if e-bikes are aka e-scooters? Not necessarily. Depends if its a pedelec or if it has power-on-demand. In the first case, it can only do assistance while the user is pedaling. It is a less tiring bike. In the latter, it is a slow moped (the pedals should remain functional at all time, so you can use it as a bike if it's out of batteries). > Doesn't an e-bike defeat the purpose of a bike? Not if you consider the purpose of a bike to be moving around.
  - thehme 13y ago
    Ok, I see how running out of battery and having working pedals would be necessary. I supposed one reason for wanting an e-bike would be to save money on gas. Since my longest work commute on a bike was only of about 30 min (~1yr), to me that was perfectly fine, but I can see longer commutes could become exhausting when done on a daily basis.
    - masklinn 13y ago
      It's also useful for people who are out of shape, when the commute isn't flat (assistance is great when going uphill) or when showers are not available at the destination (in which case you want the effort to be low enough that you won't sweat much).
rurban 13y ago
Finally a proof that New Yorkers are more stupid than anyone else. They cannot predict the speed of approaching vehicles and thus have to be protected from such vehicles. I wonder how the city council found proof for that claim.

35 points by ck2 13y ago

ck2 13y ago

My electric bicycle you can clearly see the huge hub (if you know what you are looking for). But my model is like 5 years old. I saw a modern electric bike the other day and you'd never know, except the person is going as fast as Armstrong on steroids without breaking a sweat.

dagw 13y ago
What kind of bike was that? All the electric bikes I've seen travel quite a bit slower than what a trained cyclist can do on a decent bike. Their main selling point is "not breaking a sweat", not "go really fast".
- ck2 13y ago
  My "old school" brushed motor electric bicycle can do 25mph, without pedal assitance. Apparently they have new brushless motors that fit into the rear hubs that can do 30+ mph. Beyond that it is only a wind resistance problem. There are hobbyists with 50mph electric bicycles which sounds crazy.
  - masklinn 13y ago
    Even under lax US federal law, these are not "bicycles" and are classified as motor vehicles. Public Law 107-319 defined "low-speed electrical vehicles" and altered the motor vehicle safety standards to make these low-speed vehicles not considered motor vehicles. Low-speed electrical vehicles are defined as: 1. two- or three-wheeled 2. fully operable pedals 3. less than 750 watts (1hp) 4. maximum speed (power-on-demand) of 20mph on a level surface with a rider of 170 pounds If it goes at 50mph, it's an electric motorcycle.
  - dagw 13y ago
    Those sound more like electric mopeds than electric bicycles.
- radiorental 13y ago
  This is my ebike. 32mph without pedaling. http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2841/10328825565_ef951c4367_b.jpg http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2841/10328825565_ef951c4367_b.... The selling point for me (or rather, why I built it) is that I can do my 40 mile round trip every day of the week. If I try to use my road bike alone I am burning 2+ hours a day commuting and fatiguing before the end of the week. I will say, this thing would be lethal in the city. I commute on country roads and probably the single most important point - it's safer. My motercycle is the safest, cars do not pass me, reduced 'collision opportunity'. My road bike is my most dangerous mode of transport. Cars constantly pass me as I do 20mph. Either cutting right in front of me or veering way to far out. The ebike is somewhere in between and I have not been fitter since starting to use it. I'm not touching the legality debate with a barge poll.
  - ck2 13y ago
    Yeah that is the old-school kind of motor hub, I have that on the front wheel. The one I saw was way smaller than that. Must be some kind of motor evolution. The problem with going that fast is you better be looking way in front of you because things come up fast. It also appears you do not have disc brakes which is dangerous not to have at those speeds.
    - radiorental 13y ago
      I have avid shorty cantilever breaks on the front. As good as discs when dry and better in the wet.

ollysb 13y ago

Maybe the pedestrians could you know, learn how to judge the speed of moving objects?! Plenty of couriers would be pedaling around on fixies at 20mph or more anyway so I'm not really sure where the distinction lies.

ck2 13y ago
What's interesting is it not just illegal in NYC, it is illegal in the entire state of New York. I can kinda see where it might be a problem in NYC because it is really easy to overvolt electric bikes, a 20-25mph model can become a 30+ mph flying machine that never gets tired. But why not allow electric assisted 3-wheel vending carts? Or electric 3-wheel taxis.
buro9 13y ago
I use bright (static, non-flashing) lights for this reason. It's not that people cannot judge speed, but there seems to be an uncertainty principle at play that is created by the assumptions of the person. The key assumption is: "It's a bicycle and therefore moving at barely above walking speed.". So the 50ms glance is not repeated and no actual attempt is made to assess the speed (and direction - must be the predictable one parallel to the road!) of the cyclist. Using lights changes this. By making oneself more visible, even in bright daylight, to the point that the light catches the attention. Then the person looking will look for a longer period of time and get a sense of speed and direction. It's important not to use flashing lights as people tend to be crap at determining your location accurately and that throws off any calculation about speed and direction. As a cyclist the effect is very noticeable. Cars no longer pull out from side roads in my line of travel, and pedestrians wait where they previously would've thrown themselves into the road. I don't see why NY couldn't just mandate that all electric-assist bicycles be fitted with non-flashing lamps that must be permanently lit whilst the electric assist is activated.
- stcredzero 13y ago
  > The key assumption is: "It's a bicycle and therefore moving at barely above walking speed.". It is possible to, you know, perceive speed. It happens when people hit and catch balls in sports. This is a criticism of people, not your idea. What does the data say, I wonder? All I've seen here on HN are anecdotes. There is research supporting lights aiding visibility in cars. Are there numbers for the increased risk with electric bikes?

Cthulhu_ 13y ago

I live in the Netherlands, we have dedicated bike lanes and decent cyclists. Electrical bicycles can indeed be deceptive, as in you see an elderly lady zipping by whilst slowly pedaling (usually the elderly ladies are only barely faster on bike than on foot), and since they don't make extra noises they can be a bit dangerous if you don't look out. But it's still just an assisted bicycle. Before electrical bikes, we had assisted bicycles with a small two-stroke combustion engine, the Spartamet [0]. These were iirc registered in a separate category, 'snorfietsen', which is a class lower than mopeds (TIL those would be called 'mopas') [1], or basically, 'assisted bicycles'. These do need to have an insurance registration plate (number plate) and some visual indications, but a helmet is not required. [0] http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartamet http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartamet (Dutch, no English version yet) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped

masklinn 13y ago
> But it's still just an assisted bicycle. Depends on the country. In the EU, it can only be assistance (the user must be pedaling at all times), it must cut-off completely at 25km/h and the engine can not produce more than 250W, but that's not the case everywhere. IIRC, the UK has a lower power output (200W) but allows power-on-demand, and in the US the top speed is 32km/h (20mph), up to 750W, and and AFAIK they don't require pedaling either.
- jobigoud 13y ago
  Switzerland allows 500w motors. I so wish that the EU would follow this. 500w can fit in a motor that doesn't make your bicycle look like a moped and the battery can be taken home for charge in the evening. The 25km/h and 250w limit is what is preventing me from getting one. I don't really see the point when I can reach that with human energy.
  - masklinn 13y ago
    > I don't really see the point when I can reach that with human energy. That is, in fact, exactly the point. That is why they are bicycles, not electric mopeds or scooters. The point is to do the same thing you could do before on your own, except with less sweat and fatigue through electrical assistance.

Spooky23 13y ago

I think the law (by accident) has a good point. These things move fast and people on bikes are pretty awful at paying any attention to traffic laws. (Mostly because the roads aren't engineered for them) These things are great until you get run down by some idiot cutting a streetcorner on a sidewalk. These things should be registered like any other motorized vehicle and have a license plate.

notjosh 13y ago
> These things move fast and people on bikes are pretty awful at paying any attention to traffic laws. (Mostly because the roads aren't engineered for them) These things are great until you get run down by some idiot cutting a streetcorner on a sidewalk Punish the crime of running people down, not of people wanting an alternative form of transport.
- stcredzero 13y ago
  Make it a big deal to hit someone while acting like a daredevil and make it a bigger deal to hit and run.
antimagic 13y ago
I'm not sure how your proposed solution is supposed to fix the problem you identify. The "idiot"s will still cut across street corners, even with a plate attached. Also, I'm dubious that the purported problem is a big enough problem to society that it outweighs the benefit (healthier populace, reduced traffic, reduce pollution). Do you plate requirements also apply to rollerbladers? They go at least as fast, don't even have brakes, and are much more likely to be found up on the sidewalk than any electric bike will ever be (sidewalks are annoying, they're full of these obstacles called pedestrians - much better to ride on the road where the obstacles move faster than you for the most part).
- dragandj 13y ago
  But with a plate attached, he is much more likely to be identified and found by the police if he causes a serious incident.

c0g 13y ago

As a pedal- and motor- cyclist in Oxford (city big into bikes in the UK), these electric bikes really get to me. We have lots of amenities for pedal cycles to improve their experience of the roads which are (rightly) unavailable to the faster and more dangerous to pedestrians motorcycles. Seeing these electric assistance bikes caning it along at an unrealistic speed by disinterested and distracted riders makes me think they should be classed as motorcycles with all the restrictions/responsibilities. Edit: For example, riders of a motorcycle or moped must carry insurance and wear a helmet. Anything over 50cc and you need to pass a training course to teach the rules of the road and basic manoeuvres. Cyclists do not need to pass anything (or pay vehicle tax...). I'm unsure about my opinion on making human powered vehicles abide by licensing/insurance requirements, but powered vehicles really should do.

some1else 13y ago

Does this apply to FlyKly? http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/flykly/flykly-smart-wheel http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/flykly/flykly-smart-whee...

CountHackulus 13y ago
It's a bike that has more than just pedal power, so yes.

betterunix 13y ago

So pedestrians in New York City are able to J-walk, ignore walk signals, weave around moving cars, buses, and trucks, but it is asking too much for them to avoid a powered bicycle? How about we hold cyclists responsible for hitting people -- regardless of what kind of bicycle they ride -- and leave it at that?

pavel_lishin 13y ago
I imagine that a large part of the danger is that they're silent - it's easier to avoid a loud truck or car than it is to hear a silent bike approaching at the same speeds. This is something that'll be tackled as soon as electric cars start being common place, though.
Nicholas_C 13y ago
>So pedestrians in New York City are able to J-walk, ignore walk signals, weave around moving cars, buses, and trucks J-walking is illegal in NYC as far as I know.
- 001sky 13y ago
  J-walking is illegal in NYC as far as I know. Shoes don't jaywalk, people jaywalk... Hence: shoes are legal.

jt2190 13y ago

> You can use a hand-operated throttle or, on higher-end > models, a power-assist function that kicks on the > electric motor when you start turning the pedals. Perhaps making a rule that says that the power available to a "bicycle" can only be controlled through the pedals is what is needed. This would allow power-assist type "bicycles", but would not allow for a no-pedaling, hand-operated throttle type. (Those could be classified as "electric vehicles" or something else.) (Also, maybe the maximum wattage of power assistance should be capped to keep it within the range possible from healthy humans.)

g8oz 13y ago
The controller caps the speed at 32 km/h or 20 mph by law. That's more than adequate.
- masklinn 13y ago
  US federal law is 32km/h, 750W and power on demand (no need for the user to pedal). That's closer to a moped than to a bike.
  - nols 13y ago
    I know some states regulate e-bikes as mopeds, here in MI they're treated the same; need to register and plate them, wear a helmet if you're too young, and get a license (I think the license is also based on age).
masklinn 13y ago
That's already EU law: only assistance (no power-on-demand), capped at 25km/h (~15mph) and 250W maximum. US fed law allows power-on-demand, 32km/h (20mph) and 750W blocks. That's closer to a slow scooter than a bike.
- jt2190 13y ago
  Interesting. It seems like the main complaint from New York lawmakers is that these vehicles look like bicycles but behave in a decidedly non-bicycle manner, i.e. accelerate when the rider isn't pedaling, accelerate faster than a typical bicycle, achieve a top speed that is somewhat faster, etc. Are the EU regulations good at bringing power-assist bicycles back into the normal operating rages for regular bicycles? Or is rider behavior still very different?

nlh 13y ago

The lawmakers opposed to these bikes (and a lot of the commenters here) all are operating under the stated assumption that the bikes' speed ("unpredictable") makes them a major risk to pedestrians. Is there actually any evidence of this? Anyone have any links or details about increased rates of accidents, etc. having to do with e-bikes? I can accept the premise if there's data supporting it. Otherwise this sounds suspiciously like "This sounds different/risky, therefore I don't like it."

ripter 13y ago
I wish most laws required scientific proof and if future studies prove differently the law would be revoked.
- oftenwrong 13y ago
  That would be a great way to increase the amount of fraudulent studies being published.

Zigurd 13y ago

I'm surprised at the resistance to e-bikes. E-bikes are a practical and cost-effective electric vehicle for the urban masses. The batteries are usually removable and can be charged in an apartment or office. They take up very little room on the road and parked. Replacing a car with an e-bike is a huge win. E-bikes are a mature product due to the fact that you can't get a license for gas scooters in cities in China, and they have already gone through several product generations in China. They would be a huge improvement over the prevalence of gas scooters in some cities. I hope they become mainstream in American cities. E-bikes are the best chance for bicycles to become mainstream in city traffic. If they do become a significant part of traffic, they will have a large positive effect on safety for all cyclists.

riggins 13y ago
I agree. the pros seem to far outweigh the cons.
scrabble 13y ago
As someone who spends a lot of time driving, I really don't like E-bikes. I also have no problem with pedal bikes. They take up very little room on the road and parked. This is my problem. I do not find this to be the case at all. They are becoming more popular in my city, and the people riding them seem to feel the need to take up an entire traffic lane with their bike. Since these bikes are generally not as fast as a car, and do not accelerate as quickly they end up being a large nuisance to the traffic system and actually prevent things from running smoothly.
- EliRivers 13y ago
  people riding them seem to feel the need to take up an entire traffic lane with their bike. In the UK, the highway code indicates that if you're overtaking a bicycle, you should in fact leave as much room as if it was a car; that is, what you're complaining about is intentional in the UK. I know that many cyclists (in other countries as well) deliberately take up the entire lane for their own safety.
- lightbritefight 13y ago

ryankshaw 13y ago

Somewhat off topic but I've been wanting to to get into an electric cycle. There's been a lot of innovation in the space recently. I've seen some kickstarters and stuff. I feel like we're on the brink between clunky, expensive proof-of-concepts to good, solid, mass-produced (and thus more economically viable) products. any recommendations?

mistercow 13y ago

If the problem is that you can be at top speed without peddling, why not just require that the peddles turn at a speed proportional to the power output of the motor? The rider would rest their feet on the peddles and expend no effort, and it would give the same signalling to pedestrians.

masklinn 13y ago
> If the problem is that you can be at top speed without peddling Not necessarily. > why not just require that the peddles turn at a speed proportional to the power output of the motor? EU laws require exactly that, and that's what the "pedelec" sub-category of e-bikes do: pedaling assistance rather than power-on-demand (note: there's also the s-pedelec sub-category, which also only does assist but has a more powerful engine and maximum assisted speed than allowed for the "bicycle" status in the EU, they are thus classified as mopeds if not motorcycles)

clarry 13y ago

This is somewhat unrelated but, relevant enough I guess.. In Finland a bicycle must be equipped with (among other things) two reflectors on each pedal, on the front face as well as on back. Unless it's daylight and the bike weighs less than 10 kilos and has at least N (can't remember the exact number) gears. My bike is a fixed gear and I use clipless pedals. Even if it were technically feasible to mount reflectors on the pedals, it'd be pointless because the shoe snaps on to the pedal, hiding it almost entirely. My bike is therefore illegal.

gohrt 13y ago
Put reflectors on your shoes.

thehme 13y ago

Hate the pop ups (adds or something on this article link). FF is black, so I won't waste more time on it. In any case, sounds a if e-bikes are aka e-scooters? Doesn't an e-bike defeat the purpose of a bike?

masklinn 13y ago
> In any case, sounds a if e-bikes are aka e-scooters? Not necessarily. Depends if its a pedelec or if it has power-on-demand. In the first case, it can only do assistance while the user is pedaling. It is a less tiring bike. In the latter, it is a slow moped (the pedals should remain functional at all time, so you can use it as a bike if it's out of batteries). > Doesn't an e-bike defeat the purpose of a bike? Not if you consider the purpose of a bike to be moving around.
- thehme 13y ago
  Ok, I see how running out of battery and having working pedals would be necessary. I supposed one reason for wanting an e-bike would be to save money on gas. Since my longest work commute on a bike was only of about 30 min (~1yr), to me that was perfectly fine, but I can see longer commutes could become exhausting when done on a daily basis.
  - masklinn 13y ago
    It's also useful for people who are out of shape, when the commute isn't flat (assistance is great when going uphill) or when showers are not available at the destination (in which case you want the effort to be low enough that you won't sweat much).

rurban 13y ago

Finally a proof that New Yorkers are more stupid than anyone else. They cannot predict the speed of approaching vehicles and thus have to be protected from such vehicles. I wonder how the city council found proof for that claim.