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Something I've yet to see explored is the difference between negative and positive willpower. For example, I find it very difficult to motivate myself to do som

Something I've yet to see explored is the difference between negative and positive willpower. For example, I find it very difficult to motivate myself to do something I don't want to do, and easy to procrastinate. But it is relatively easy for me to have the willpower not to do something that I do want to do. On the other hand, many people seem to have the opposite problem; they find it relatively easy to do things that are unpleasant, but difficult to restrain themselves from indulging in the things that they enjoy. Of course, you can have a mix of both problems, and it might vary based on what makes the activity unpleasant or pleasant. If something is physically addictive, then someone with strong restraint might find an exception there. And if a task is stressful or painful rather than merely cumbersome or boring, someone with strong proactive willpower might still have difficulty with it. But I think it's worth investigating because it seems plausible that these are entirely different problems conflated by language. And it seems likely that totally different strategies would be needed for managing them.

graeme 13y ago
I have the same issue. Of course, sometimes they get conflated. DON'T waste time on Hacker News is indirectly a problem with DO work on your project. But once I decide, 'start work on the project even if you don't really feel like it', that part is easy.
Xcelerate 13y ago
This is an incredibly interesting point that I've never heard anyone mention before.
return0 13y ago
When the task requires some effort, it's obvious that it's easier to just not do it, even if desirable. The least effort it requires, the harder it is to deny it (e.g. smoking).
- mistercow 13y ago
  Maybe, but I'm not sure that always holds up. Playing video games requires effort, but many people find it difficult to refrain from that. This may be confounded somewhat, since in some cases procrastination might be mistaken for lack of restraint. But I don't think that's always the case.
  - mkmkmmmmm 13y ago
    There must be a distinction between deliberate effort and flow effort? One weird thing I note is that reading highly technical articles online is easier to make myself do than reading technical papers (even if the article is roughly as difficult). It's like the same task but the classification causes me to make different decisions.
stevecooperorg 13y ago
I see that sort of thing in myself. I find myself to be a fundamentally 'enthusiastic' person -- I love to act, and hate to refrain. Which shows up in things like health; I'll exercise like a dog and eat like a pig, because run is an action, but moderation is a lack of action (don't eat)
alexandros 13y ago
Can confirm making the exact same self-observation
hrjet 13y ago
There is yet another category of people who find it difficult to summon both types of will powers. Takes a bow
jotm 13y ago
And interestingly, these two actions are controlled by two different parts of the brain. So technically, there are two "reserves" of willpower. I've been reading a lot of research lately and sadly, it looks like willpower is determined by how developed (determined by genetics) or active (determined by exertion of willpower) are the prefrontal cortex regions. We can train ourselves to have more willpower by exercising these parts of the brain regularly, but not by much. We hit our personal limit pretty fast and the best we can do then is to limit the amount of decisions we make...
xiaoma 13y ago
I've thought a lot about this one, too. I'm in the opposite camp from you. Restraint is so much harder than "willfulness". I'm great at putting myself through punishing training, physical or mental over a short duration but very weak in resisting things over the long term. For example, I've done endurance events that involve sleep deprivation, done intense 80hr/week work weeks when starting a business and even swimming sprint workouts so hard that I puked. But I've struggled greatly to avoid things like eating that extra 1500 kcal of cheese while watching Netflix from midnight to 2am. The result has been a very high variance in my success at various endeavors. In the past year or so, I've been coming to believe that improving my weaker "negative" willpower carries a much greater benefit at this point than further improving my "positive" willpower. It's almost like the blades of a pair of scissors. If one it sharp enough, it can cut things on its own, but it's far better to have both blades at least reasonably sharp.
jholman 13y ago
First of all, I too think this is an interesting idea that I've never heard/considered before. I too find restraint easy but action difficult. I agree, too, with your last paragraph. But aside from that, even if individuals we do not find good strategies for better managing our weaknesses.... can we find better strategies for collaborating with others with complementary strengths and weaknesses? Of the people replying to you and stating a side, it looks like roughly a 50/50 split. Is it possible for strong-restraint people to lend restraint to weak-restraint people? Is it possible for strong-initiative people to lend initiative to weak-initiative people?

graeme 13y ago

I have the same issue. Of course, sometimes they get conflated. DON'T waste time on Hacker News is indirectly a problem with DO work on your project. But once I decide, 'start work on the project even if you don't really feel like it', that part is easy.

Xcelerate 13y ago

This is an incredibly interesting point that I've never heard anyone mention before.

return0 13y ago

When the task requires some effort, it's obvious that it's easier to just not do it, even if desirable. The least effort it requires, the harder it is to deny it (e.g. smoking).

mistercow 13y ago
Maybe, but I'm not sure that always holds up. Playing video games requires effort, but many people find it difficult to refrain from that. This may be confounded somewhat, since in some cases procrastination might be mistaken for lack of restraint. But I don't think that's always the case.
- mkmkmmmmm 13y ago
  There must be a distinction between deliberate effort and flow effort? One weird thing I note is that reading highly technical articles online is easier to make myself do than reading technical papers (even if the article is roughly as difficult). It's like the same task but the classification causes me to make different decisions.

stevecooperorg 13y ago

I see that sort of thing in myself. I find myself to be a fundamentally 'enthusiastic' person -- I love to act, and hate to refrain. Which shows up in things like health; I'll exercise like a dog and eat like a pig, because run is an action, but moderation is a lack of action (don't eat)

alexandros 13y ago

Can confirm making the exact same self-observation

hrjet 13y ago

There is yet another category of people who find it difficult to summon both types of will powers. Takes a bow

jotm 13y ago

And interestingly, these two actions are controlled by two different parts of the brain. So technically, there are two "reserves" of willpower. I've been reading a lot of research lately and sadly, it looks like willpower is determined by how developed (determined by genetics) or active (determined by exertion of willpower) are the prefrontal cortex regions. We can train ourselves to have more willpower by exercising these parts of the brain regularly, but not by much. We hit our personal limit pretty fast and the best we can do then is to limit the amount of decisions we make...

xiaoma 13y ago

I've thought a lot about this one, too. I'm in the opposite camp from you. Restraint is so much harder than "willfulness". I'm great at putting myself through punishing training, physical or mental over a short duration but very weak in resisting things over the long term. For example, I've done endurance events that involve sleep deprivation, done intense 80hr/week work weeks when starting a business and even swimming sprint workouts so hard that I puked. But I've struggled greatly to avoid things like eating that extra 1500 kcal of cheese while watching Netflix from midnight to 2am. The result has been a very high variance in my success at various endeavors. In the past year or so, I've been coming to believe that improving my weaker "negative" willpower carries a much greater benefit at this point than further improving my "positive" willpower. It's almost like the blades of a pair of scissors. If one it sharp enough, it can cut things on its own, but it's far better to have both blades at least reasonably sharp.

jholman 13y ago

First of all, I too think this is an interesting idea that I've never heard/considered before. I too find restraint easy but action difficult. I agree, too, with your last paragraph. But aside from that, even if individuals we do not find good strategies for better managing our weaknesses.... can we find better strategies for collaborating with others with complementary strengths and weaknesses? Of the people replying to you and stating a side, it looks like roughly a 50/50 split. Is it possible for strong-restraint people to lend restraint to weak-restraint people? Is it possible for strong-initiative people to lend initiative to weak-initiative people?