6 ms·

> The iPhone is sold as is, why should we expect to use it any differently? Wow. It's almost sickening to see the inversion of the principles of software free

by zmimon 17y ago

> The iPhone is sold as is, why should we expect to use it any differently? Wow. It's almost sickening to see the inversion of the principles of software freedom that Apple is able to get away with and not get criticized in the fanboi community. Geeks have been lambasting Microsoft for merely having proprietary formats for 20 years. They even got fined for billions of dollars just for not documenting their protocols well enough. Now Apple plays god and controls every single application that can ever even run on a platform. They make developers sign NDAs that prevent them even talking about technical details of the platform publicly. They do these things that are the antithesis of everything the open software community have been trying to achieve for the last 15 years and not only do people like yourself give it a pass, you go out of your way to stand up and defend it. I find it breathtaking.

gommm 17y ago
I've always thought that the only difference between microsoft and apple on the point of view of behavior when keeping a monopoly is that apple hadn't been successful enough to actually be as aggressive as microsoft
jodrellblank 17y ago
And instead of answering the question, you bring Microsoft and the FSF into it and call me a fanboi. Again - it's only restricted if you look at it from the POV of a general purpose open and free computer, and that's not what it's sold as. Why are you trying to restrict what Apple can sell so it only covers devices that conform to your standards?
jodrellblank 17y ago
Wow. It's almost sickening to see the inversion of the principles of software freedom that Apple is able to get away with and not get criticized in the fanboi community. Irrelevant. Regardless of whether I am a fanboi, my question stands. Geeks have been lambasting Microsoft for merely having proprietary formats for 20 years. Yes, but also irrelevant. I don't like Microsoft (or any company's) proprietary formats, but I think they should have the right to create and use them. They even got fined for billions of dollars just for not documenting their protocols well enough. That both annoys and pleases me, but it's not relevant. Now Apple plays god and controls every single application that can ever even run on a platform. Yes. It's an Apple platform. They ought to be allowed to. (What kind of attack is "stop, you're playing God" anyway? Kids "Play God" in sandpits, that's no reason to ban sand pits.) They make developers sign NDAs that prevent them even talking about technical details of the platform publicly. Yes, and they ought to be allowed to do this. I don't personally enjoy it or think it fosters a great community, but that's also not relevant. They do these things that are the antithesis of everything the open software community have been trying to achieve for the last 15 years Where and why do the open source community come into this at all? The open source community pushes its own agenda, not no agenda. and not only do people like yourself give it a pass I give it a pass because I see no reason not to. This doesn't mean I like it and approve of it personally, but I think it should be allowed and acceptable. you go out of your way to stand up and defend it. It needs defending; most of the attacks are plain silly.
- mcantelon 17y ago
  There are plenty of stupid, reprehensible things that people have a right to do. I don't think the issue is whether they have a right to do these things, but whether we should support them when they do these things. When we support organizations that treat developers worse than other organizations do we are promoting a negative change in the culture of development.
- sketerpot 17y ago
  > I give it a pass because I see no reason not to. This doesn't mean I like it and approve of it personally, but I think it should be allowed and acceptable. This is the crux of where we disagree. I don't think you'll see many people claiming that Apple doesn't have a right to do what they've been doing, but the fact that something should be allowed does not imply that it should be considered acceptable. Flash pop-up ads on web sites, for example, are completely unacceptable. If some web site pulls that crap with me, I stay the hell away from it. If I have to use that web site for some reason, I'll grouse about it. I wouldn't try to deprive those web sites of their right to use Flash in obnoxious ways, but I sure won't stand for it. Similarly, Apple's behavior is unpleasant and disturbing and it should be treated as such. This is one of the big advantages of the Android platform, and why I will not get an iPhone: openness. Freedom, if that doesn't sound too hokey. It's important to me.
sketerpot 17y ago
This is a total digression, but do we have to spell it "fanboi"? What was wrong with gool ol' "fanboy"? Whenever I see "fanboi" my mind automatically tries to pronounce it as either a French or Spanish word, and that's jarring. (I have this same problem with "xian": an abbreviation for "Christian" that looks like it ought to be a Chinese word. Damn it.)

by zmimon 17y ago

gommm 17y ago

I've always thought that the only difference between microsoft and apple on the point of view of behavior when keeping a monopoly is that apple hadn't been successful enough to actually be as aggressive as microsoft

jodrellblank 17y ago

And instead of answering the question, you bring Microsoft and the FSF into it and call me a fanboi. Again - it's only restricted if you look at it from the POV of a general purpose open and free computer, and that's not what it's sold as. Why are you trying to restrict what Apple can sell so it only covers devices that conform to your standards?

jodrellblank 17y ago

Wow. It's almost sickening to see the inversion of the principles of software freedom that Apple is able to get away with and not get criticized in the fanboi community. Irrelevant. Regardless of whether I am a fanboi, my question stands. Geeks have been lambasting Microsoft for merely having proprietary formats for 20 years. Yes, but also irrelevant. I don't like Microsoft (or any company's) proprietary formats, but I think they should have the right to create and use them. They even got fined for billions of dollars just for not documenting their protocols well enough. That both annoys and pleases me, but it's not relevant. Now Apple plays god and controls every single application that can ever even run on a platform. Yes. It's an Apple platform. They ought to be allowed to. (What kind of attack is "stop, you're playing God" anyway? Kids "Play God" in sandpits, that's no reason to ban sand pits.) They make developers sign NDAs that prevent them even talking about technical details of the platform publicly. Yes, and they ought to be allowed to do this. I don't personally enjoy it or think it fosters a great community, but that's also not relevant. They do these things that are the antithesis of everything the open software community have been trying to achieve for the last 15 years Where and why do the open source community come into this at all? The open source community pushes its own agenda, not no agenda. and not only do people like yourself give it a pass I give it a pass because I see no reason not to. This doesn't mean I like it and approve of it personally, but I think it should be allowed and acceptable. you go out of your way to stand up and defend it. It needs defending; most of the attacks are plain silly.

mcantelon 17y ago
There are plenty of stupid, reprehensible things that people have a right to do. I don't think the issue is whether they have a right to do these things, but whether we should support them when they do these things. When we support organizations that treat developers worse than other organizations do we are promoting a negative change in the culture of development.
sketerpot 17y ago
> I give it a pass because I see no reason not to. This doesn't mean I like it and approve of it personally, but I think it should be allowed and acceptable. This is the crux of where we disagree. I don't think you'll see many people claiming that Apple doesn't have a right to do what they've been doing, but the fact that something should be allowed does not imply that it should be considered acceptable. Flash pop-up ads on web sites, for example, are completely unacceptable. If some web site pulls that crap with me, I stay the hell away from it. If I have to use that web site for some reason, I'll grouse about it. I wouldn't try to deprive those web sites of their right to use Flash in obnoxious ways, but I sure won't stand for it. Similarly, Apple's behavior is unpleasant and disturbing and it should be treated as such. This is one of the big advantages of the Android platform, and why I will not get an iPhone: openness. Freedom, if that doesn't sound too hokey. It's important to me.

sketerpot 17y ago

This is a total digression, but do we have to spell it "fanboi"? What was wrong with gool ol' "fanboy"? Whenever I see "fanboi" my mind automatically tries to pronounce it as either a French or Spanish word, and that's jarring. (I have this same problem with "xian": an abbreviation for "Christian" that looks like it ought to be a Chinese word. Damn it.)