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The iPhone is a terrible platform for the vast, vast majority of developers. The process of getting on board, promotion, and success is a total black hole. Fi

The iPhone is a terrible platform for the vast, vast majority of developers. The process of getting on board, promotion, and success is a total black hole. First movers such as ngmoco and Tapulous have done well; people with better apps - for free - have failed. Maaaaaaaybe 3.0 makes it easier for niche plays to work; certainly, as far as I can tell, add-on payments aren't supported in Palm's marketplace. I do think the Apple folks are improving the platform. But they act like jerks. Apple can fuck over iPhone devs, and they do. Frankly, it's what you would expect from them. An abuser doesn't stop beating when you confront him; he stops beating you when you leave.

jsz0 17y ago
Or perhaps people really just don't care that much? You'd think if it was so terrible people would not develop for it. The fact it continues to grow and arguably flourish is a pretty good indication there's more good than bad.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- ankhmoop 17y ago
  It's an indication of the motivational factor of the promise of money. Every gold rush "success story" sends N more enterprising individuals chasing after the big payout. I've met our payroll for months on iPhone contract work and licensing, but not one of our clients or customers has made back their initial investment. I hear the same from other iPhone developers. Moreover, we've found Apple to be capricious in their regular and seemingly inescapable rejections, absolutely impossible to contact directly for any reason, and in the worst cases, only responsive to bad press. Personally, I wouldn't write another in-house iPhone application for love or money, but I'm happy to capitalize on the gold rush while I focus on other platforms.
Zev 17y ago
But they act like jerks. With the exception of the session that is mentioned in this article, I'm going to have to disagree. To counter with my own anecdote in here, I work on a few apps (mac and iphone) and every time I went down to a lab to talk to an engineer directly, I was able to get help and have my problem solved. Issues ranged from bugs in Apple's code (with 10.6, and will be fixed by release) to App Portal/App ID issues, to bugs in my own code.
- sachinag 17y ago
  http://daringfireball.net/2009/05/diary_of_an_app_store_reviewer http://daringfireball.net/2009/05/diary_of_an_app_store_revi... This wouldn't have gotten the love it did if it didn't ring all-too-true to all-too-many people.
  - GHFigs 17y ago
    Ringing true doesn't make it true. I’ve also learned that many of the problems aren’t intentional: many parts of Apple’s internal infrastructure are overloaded or extremely outdated, and they’re scrambling to keep up with their growth, often ineffectively. One major surprise was when an Apple employee told me that the App Store reviewers are not outsourced: they’re all direct, full-time Apple employees. Many of them work nights and weekends to keep up with the extremely high submission volume, and they’re constantly expanding the staff to keep up with the submission growth. Source? Why, the very same post that Gruber is quoting in this submission.
    - paulhart 17y ago
      My understanding, from a contact within Apple, is that the reviewers are indeed Apple FTEs. It wasn't clear if they were somewhere on the main campus or in one of the satellite buildings, but I was led to believe they are in Cupertino. Certainly some of the stats I was able to get from testers (thanks PinchMedia) suggest the testers have access to the AT&T network in the US. I could probably find IP addresses from Apple's /8 if people wanted to try to validate further.
  - Zev 17y ago
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. I mentioned the iPhone Dev Portal, and code-level issues having problems solved, not that the App Store was magically fixed with 5 minutes of talking to an engineer.
- ankhmoop 17y ago
  Apple, Inc., not its individual developers, treats iPhone developers horribly. As a rule, Apple shields itself with layer upon layer of corporate bureaucratic armor, and the value of WWDC is cutting through that nonsense. However, at the one session about the appstore submission process, Apple stonewalled developers.
joubert 17y ago
And yet, don't iPhone USERS have the best user experience of any (mobile) platform?
- jonknee 17y ago
  I guess that depends on the user. The user who wanted basic stuff like MMS, multi-tasking and tethering hasn't been getting the best experience.
  - mattmaroon 17y ago
    Or the user who actually uses a phone to make calls.
    - jonknee 17y ago
      Heh, I didn't want to start a opinion war but you have a point. One of the iPhone users I know actually went out and bought another phone to use in his car because he was so sick of dropped calls.
      - conquest 17y ago
        I thought the dropped call problems were over until yesterday. I have to turn off 3G in order to make a call. This phone is pathetic when it comes to making calls. My razr was so much better as a phone.
    - quantumhobbit 17y ago
      This has to be somewhat location specific. AT&T seems to have some of the best reception where I usually spend most of my time, the Gulf and East Coasts. The iPhone seems to get as good or better reception than my old Nokia (disclaimer: this was a very old Nokia). Apparently it is terrible on the West Coast. Of course these are isolated data points. I do think that Apple has made a mistake by limiting the iPhone to one carrier, especially one that can arouse strong hatred like AT&T.
    - djehuty 17y ago
bluefish 17y ago
Frankly, it's what you would expect from them. An abuser doesn't stop beating when you confront him; he stops beating you when you leave. I'm not an iPhone developer, nor have I ever developed anything for the Mac platform specifically. Based on the stories I've read online it does sound like Apple isn't handling their iPhone app store well, but I do take issue with the part of your comment I've quoted. I'd like some examples about why you would expect to be treated poorly (or as you put it abused) by Apple. Is it only based on their track record with app developers? If so perhaps it's a problem rooted in the iPhone app process itself and not systemic to the whole company, as you imply. I would need more examples of Apple's abusive policies to understand your statement, for now though I'm not going to write off Apple as horrible corporation because some app developers cry foul (to which, according to the blogger's own admission, Apple attempts to promptly respond to and rectify).
- lacker 17y ago
  Based on the stories I've read online it does sound like Apple isn't handling their iPhone app store well. Those stories are the worst experiences and are not representative of the majority of iPhone development. The Apple app store is handled worlds better than any other phone. No other platform is even usable to the extent that you see people complain about it.
  - TeHCrAzY 17y ago
    Just because you're only hitting me softly, when the other guys are hitting me hard, doesn't mean I shouldn't ask you to stop.
andrewljohnson 17y ago
I always respond this way, and I always get scorned here. But, the iPhone platform has worked for us. Updates have been a bit slow, but we feel like we have been rewarded for our work. Some things are tricky and unintuitive, but that's the way it is in any market. Selling a product just isn't easy. You are always fighting against smart people, and there are unknowns. I feel like people shouldn't get into the App Store market thinking that they will make a million dollars their first app. Only a few people can succeed like that at any time. But, if you jump through Apple's hoops, listen to your customers, and try and serve a real need, you can make a living on the iPhone. People expect launching an iPhone app to be like launching a website, which you can do in a single day. They expect to be able to push whatever code they want, and push releases whenever they want. Well, the App Store isn't like that. And while my website is fun and cool, it doesn't make much money. My iPhone app does.
- gcheong 17y ago
  I think all the developers want is some clear guidelines and transparency into the approval process and some recourse when they feel they have a good argument why their rejected apps should be approved. I think if those two things were in place, most developers would be satisfied. As things stand now, your app is just an update away from rejection by Apple and they don't even have to give you a reason.
  - andrewljohnson 17y ago
    My only answer is, the market has spoken. Apple's process may be kludgy and untransparent at times, but they have the dominant App Store and phone for a reason. Some how they have succeeded in enthralling tons of developers and tons of end users. I can't help think that part of that is that because the process is actually pretty good in the scheme of things. It would be really expensive to deal with every bitchy developer who had a problem, personally. I mean, Google operates the same way and they are great. It's nearly impossible to email anyone for support for any Google product.
    - davidw 17y ago
symesc 17y ago
So why stay? Love?
brooksbp 17y ago
The floggings will continue until morale improves...
lacker 17y ago
The iPhone is a terrible platform for the vast, vast majority of developers. No. You want a terrible platform, you try writing software for the Nokia platform. Or heck, try any other phone platform besides the iPhone. It's not a coincidence more apps are sold for the iPhone than for any other platform. Apple has provided the best user experience and has the most users who are willing to buy apps. They are doing you a great service by allowing third party apps and promoting apps that hit their "best of" lists for free. Just because the experience isn't perfect doesn't mean Apple is "fucking over iPhone devs".
- timdorr 17y ago
  I wouldn't call a service that's rejected apps seemingly on a reviewer's whim with no recourse or dispute process "not perfect"; I'd call that downright abysmal. I've had one of my apps rejected because I used the an icon incorrectly (it was for submitting a request, but the icon was only supposed to be used for sending messages. huh?). A tiny change in IB and it was accepted a week later. Yet crap like this gets through no problem: http://ralovely.com/downloads/triplog1040.png http://ralovely.com/downloads/triplog1040.png And that's not even a bad case by a long shot. Based on Apple's own numbers, about 1 in 20 app store submissions are being rejected. There's no way to know how many of those are legitimate rejections (I'm willing to bet a lot), but that's a pretty scary number of apps that should be let through that aren't. The changes they need to make to drastically improve the experience for devs are really minor. I don't know why Apple's making them, other than a tradition of insane levels of secrecy in their corporate culture. That or they're just too embarrassed to let people see into their review structure. Either way, something is broken.
  - rimantas 17y ago
    I agree with your first sentence but the point is that application acceptance to AppStore policy does not constitute entire platform. I am curious, why this part of the otherwise very nice platform is so screwed.
- nuclear_eclipse 17y ago
  > Or heck, try any other phone platform besides the iPhone. Developing applications for the Android platform is an absolutely wonderful process; I can build apps in Eclipse on any platform, plug in my phone via USB, instantly upload the compiled code, and run the app with a full debugger suite in Eclipse allowing me to debug apps as they're running on the phone, with breakpoints, full listing of in-scope variables, and a list of all process threads. And I haven't even had to pay a developer fee! Imagine that... And while I haven't personally put an app on the Market, I've heard that the Market process is really straightforward and simple. And some of the apps I've downloaded have had multiple new versions available in a single week, so it's not slow, lumbering, and full of pitfalls like the App Store process. The coincidence is just that Apple has spent more on marketing and branding for the iPhone than other platforms, and they were the "first" to have an all-in-one smartphone device with a decent UI, but they are by no means the "best" on the market. They just spend a lot of money and resources to get everyone to think they are.

jsz0 17y ago

Or perhaps people really just don't care that much? You'd think if it was so terrible people would not develop for it. The fact it continues to grow and arguably flourish is a pretty good indication there's more good than bad.

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
ankhmoop 17y ago
It's an indication of the motivational factor of the promise of money. Every gold rush "success story" sends N more enterprising individuals chasing after the big payout. I've met our payroll for months on iPhone contract work and licensing, but not one of our clients or customers has made back their initial investment. I hear the same from other iPhone developers. Moreover, we've found Apple to be capricious in their regular and seemingly inescapable rejections, absolutely impossible to contact directly for any reason, and in the worst cases, only responsive to bad press. Personally, I wouldn't write another in-house iPhone application for love or money, but I'm happy to capitalize on the gold rush while I focus on other platforms.

Zev 17y ago

But they act like jerks. With the exception of the session that is mentioned in this article, I'm going to have to disagree. To counter with my own anecdote in here, I work on a few apps (mac and iphone) and every time I went down to a lab to talk to an engineer directly, I was able to get help and have my problem solved. Issues ranged from bugs in Apple's code (with 10.6, and will be fixed by release) to App Portal/App ID issues, to bugs in my own code.

sachinag 17y ago
http://daringfireball.net/2009/05/diary_of_an_app_store_reviewer http://daringfireball.net/2009/05/diary_of_an_app_store_revi... This wouldn't have gotten the love it did if it didn't ring all-too-true to all-too-many people.
- GHFigs 17y ago
  Ringing true doesn't make it true. I’ve also learned that many of the problems aren’t intentional: many parts of Apple’s internal infrastructure are overloaded or extremely outdated, and they’re scrambling to keep up with their growth, often ineffectively. One major surprise was when an Apple employee told me that the App Store reviewers are not outsourced: they’re all direct, full-time Apple employees. Many of them work nights and weekends to keep up with the extremely high submission volume, and they’re constantly expanding the staff to keep up with the submission growth. Source? Why, the very same post that Gruber is quoting in this submission.
  - paulhart 17y ago
    My understanding, from a contact within Apple, is that the reviewers are indeed Apple FTEs. It wasn't clear if they were somewhere on the main campus or in one of the satellite buildings, but I was led to believe they are in Cupertino. Certainly some of the stats I was able to get from testers (thanks PinchMedia) suggest the testers have access to the AT&T network in the US. I could probably find IP addresses from Apple's /8 if people wanted to try to validate further.
- Zev 17y ago
  I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. I mentioned the iPhone Dev Portal, and code-level issues having problems solved, not that the App Store was magically fixed with 5 minutes of talking to an engineer.
ankhmoop 17y ago
Apple, Inc., not its individual developers, treats iPhone developers horribly. As a rule, Apple shields itself with layer upon layer of corporate bureaucratic armor, and the value of WWDC is cutting through that nonsense. However, at the one session about the appstore submission process, Apple stonewalled developers.

joubert 17y ago

And yet, don't iPhone USERS have the best user experience of any (mobile) platform?

jonknee 17y ago
I guess that depends on the user. The user who wanted basic stuff like MMS, multi-tasking and tethering hasn't been getting the best experience.
- mattmaroon 17y ago
  Or the user who actually uses a phone to make calls.
  - jonknee 17y ago
    Heh, I didn't want to start a opinion war but you have a point. One of the iPhone users I know actually went out and bought another phone to use in his car because he was so sick of dropped calls.
    - conquest 17y ago
      I thought the dropped call problems were over until yesterday. I have to turn off 3G in order to make a call. This phone is pathetic when it comes to making calls. My razr was so much better as a phone.
  - quantumhobbit 17y ago
    This has to be somewhat location specific. AT&T seems to have some of the best reception where I usually spend most of my time, the Gulf and East Coasts. The iPhone seems to get as good or better reception than my old Nokia (disclaimer: this was a very old Nokia). Apparently it is terrible on the West Coast. Of course these are isolated data points. I do think that Apple has made a mistake by limiting the iPhone to one carrier, especially one that can arouse strong hatred like AT&T.
  - djehuty 17y ago

bluefish 17y ago

Frankly, it's what you would expect from them. An abuser doesn't stop beating when you confront him; he stops beating you when you leave. I'm not an iPhone developer, nor have I ever developed anything for the Mac platform specifically. Based on the stories I've read online it does sound like Apple isn't handling their iPhone app store well, but I do take issue with the part of your comment I've quoted. I'd like some examples about why you would expect to be treated poorly (or as you put it abused) by Apple. Is it only based on their track record with app developers? If so perhaps it's a problem rooted in the iPhone app process itself and not systemic to the whole company, as you imply. I would need more examples of Apple's abusive policies to understand your statement, for now though I'm not going to write off Apple as horrible corporation because some app developers cry foul (to which, according to the blogger's own admission, Apple attempts to promptly respond to and rectify).

lacker 17y ago
Based on the stories I've read online it does sound like Apple isn't handling their iPhone app store well. Those stories are the worst experiences and are not representative of the majority of iPhone development. The Apple app store is handled worlds better than any other phone. No other platform is even usable to the extent that you see people complain about it.
- TeHCrAzY 17y ago
  Just because you're only hitting me softly, when the other guys are hitting me hard, doesn't mean I shouldn't ask you to stop.

andrewljohnson 17y ago

I always respond this way, and I always get scorned here. But, the iPhone platform has worked for us. Updates have been a bit slow, but we feel like we have been rewarded for our work. Some things are tricky and unintuitive, but that's the way it is in any market. Selling a product just isn't easy. You are always fighting against smart people, and there are unknowns. I feel like people shouldn't get into the App Store market thinking that they will make a million dollars their first app. Only a few people can succeed like that at any time. But, if you jump through Apple's hoops, listen to your customers, and try and serve a real need, you can make a living on the iPhone. People expect launching an iPhone app to be like launching a website, which you can do in a single day. They expect to be able to push whatever code they want, and push releases whenever they want. Well, the App Store isn't like that. And while my website is fun and cool, it doesn't make much money. My iPhone app does.

gcheong 17y ago
I think all the developers want is some clear guidelines and transparency into the approval process and some recourse when they feel they have a good argument why their rejected apps should be approved. I think if those two things were in place, most developers would be satisfied. As things stand now, your app is just an update away from rejection by Apple and they don't even have to give you a reason.
- andrewljohnson 17y ago
  My only answer is, the market has spoken. Apple's process may be kludgy and untransparent at times, but they have the dominant App Store and phone for a reason. Some how they have succeeded in enthralling tons of developers and tons of end users. I can't help think that part of that is that because the process is actually pretty good in the scheme of things. It would be really expensive to deal with every bitchy developer who had a problem, personally. I mean, Google operates the same way and they are great. It's nearly impossible to email anyone for support for any Google product.
  - davidw 17y ago

symesc 17y ago

So why stay? Love?

brooksbp 17y ago

The floggings will continue until morale improves...

lacker 17y ago

The iPhone is a terrible platform for the vast, vast majority of developers. No. You want a terrible platform, you try writing software for the Nokia platform. Or heck, try any other phone platform besides the iPhone. It's not a coincidence more apps are sold for the iPhone than for any other platform. Apple has provided the best user experience and has the most users who are willing to buy apps. They are doing you a great service by allowing third party apps and promoting apps that hit their "best of" lists for free. Just because the experience isn't perfect doesn't mean Apple is "fucking over iPhone devs".

timdorr 17y ago
I wouldn't call a service that's rejected apps seemingly on a reviewer's whim with no recourse or dispute process "not perfect"; I'd call that downright abysmal. I've had one of my apps rejected because I used the an icon incorrectly (it was for submitting a request, but the icon was only supposed to be used for sending messages. huh?). A tiny change in IB and it was accepted a week later. Yet crap like this gets through no problem: http://ralovely.com/downloads/triplog1040.png http://ralovely.com/downloads/triplog1040.png And that's not even a bad case by a long shot. Based on Apple's own numbers, about 1 in 20 app store submissions are being rejected. There's no way to know how many of those are legitimate rejections (I'm willing to bet a lot), but that's a pretty scary number of apps that should be let through that aren't. The changes they need to make to drastically improve the experience for devs are really minor. I don't know why Apple's making them, other than a tradition of insane levels of secrecy in their corporate culture. That or they're just too embarrassed to let people see into their review structure. Either way, something is broken.
- rimantas 17y ago
  I agree with your first sentence but the point is that application acceptance to AppStore policy does not constitute entire platform. I am curious, why this part of the otherwise very nice platform is so screwed.
nuclear_eclipse 17y ago
> Or heck, try any other phone platform besides the iPhone. Developing applications for the Android platform is an absolutely wonderful process; I can build apps in Eclipse on any platform, plug in my phone via USB, instantly upload the compiled code, and run the app with a full debugger suite in Eclipse allowing me to debug apps as they're running on the phone, with breakpoints, full listing of in-scope variables, and a list of all process threads. And I haven't even had to pay a developer fee! Imagine that... And while I haven't personally put an app on the Market, I've heard that the Market process is really straightforward and simple. And some of the apps I've downloaded have had multiple new versions available in a single week, so it's not slow, lumbering, and full of pitfalls like the App Store process. The coincidence is just that Apple has spent more on marketing and branding for the iPhone than other platforms, and they were the "first" to have an all-in-one smartphone device with a decent UI, but they are by no means the "best" on the market. They just spend a lot of money and resources to get everyone to think they are.