7 ms·

Ogg founder moves to Mozilla to work on new video codec

183 points by bsimpson 13y ago

jph 13y ago
This is excellent news. Monty Montgomery is among my hero developers for nearly two decades now, building Xiph, Ogg, Vorbis, Theora, and the like. Mozilla and Monty sounds like a wonderful match for creating free open source codecs, and bringing them to everyone. Congratulations to Mozilla and Monty!
- Jasper_ 13y ago
  Don't forget cdparanoia!
yeukhon 13y ago
So that's him living in MA working remote. He did not show up at monday meeting!
aw3c2 13y ago
Direct link to his announcement: https://plus.google.com/110063726540320603118/posts/PdXWDAyTj2f https://plus.google.com/110063726540320603118/posts/PdXWDAyT...
vitno 13y ago
Check out his fantastic demo pages for a look at the work being done on Daala. http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/daala/demo1.shtml http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/daala/demo1.shtml This is great news!
jzzskijj 13y ago
Excellent news that H.265 has competition, but at the same time I am feeling a bit pessimistic. Consider Theora for example: Even if there is open source VHDL available for Theora, it was only implemented in Nios II and LEON processors and according to Wikipedia "there are currently no Theora decoder chips in production". Even a license free codec wasn't enough to attract interest from manufacturers. Youtube delivers huge part of the "relevant" video material in Internet. And Google has their own video codec. Would they include Mozilla's codec into their browser (and smartphones) instead and start encoding videos in their own service with Mozilla's codec? Quite unlikely. At least the article doesn't mention anything about DRM, so would it be enough for Netflix?
- atopal 13y ago
  > Excellent news that H.265 has competition, but at the same time I am feeling a bit pessimistic. Daala is not meant to compete with H.265, it's meant to compete with the successor of H.265. As he mentions it won't be ready for production before the end of 2015.
- ghjkld 13y ago
  I'm sure Google will be just as enthusiastic about incorporating Mozilla's new video codec daala as Mozilla is about adding Google's image codec webp.
  - cromwellian 13y ago
    Seems like a big case of NIH syndrome if you ask me.
    - noir_lord 13y ago
      That's exactly what it is and while all these teams spend time inventing technology that is 98% the same as the existing stuff the people with the technology that is 100% the same as the existing stuff (often proprietary) laugh all the way to the bank. It's 2013, there are dozens of codecs, many open enough to be used, just flaming pick one.
      - vitno 13y ago
        I'm not sure you realize how different Daala is from any other video codec in usage. It's ALSO royalty-free with a permissive FOSS license. It will also ideally be significantly better than anything else on the market.
        cromwellian 13y ago
        It also won't arrive optimistically until almost 2016, effectively making it dead in the water if H265 gets rolled out in every smartphone, or if WebM is everywhere. There are lots of promising codecs that were proposed to be different. Wavelets used to get lots of hype too. It's a very risky bet to just punt for 3+ years on the hope that promising research will pan out into something viable. Research projects shouldn't delay moving forward on stuff that's ready now.
robinduckett 13y ago
Sorry to be the one to do this, but Relevant XKCD: http://xkcd.com/927/ http://xkcd.com/927/
- mschuster91 13y ago
  Relevant yes, but in this case the requirement for a new standard doesn't arise from vanity or "more use cases", but rather from the fact that video compression is a patent minefield.
- mbq 13y ago
  Situation: there are 0 free and libre state-of-art video codecs; Xiph is working on one supported by Red Hat and Mozilla. Mozilla buys Monty Montgomery from Red Hat. Soon: Situation: there are 0 free and libre state-of-art video codecs; Xiph is working on one supported by Red Hat and Mozilla. ... very relevant.
  - gillianseed 13y ago
    How are VP8/VP9 (webm) not 'free and libre'?
    - mbq 13y ago
      As I understand, Google can go evil and use its patents to impose certain restrictions, like killing potential independent VP10 project or messing with webm's royalty-free status.
      - cromwellian 13y ago
        Citation?
      - gillianseed 13y ago
        Since Google are offering them under a _irrevocable_ royalty free licence I don't see how you could have come to 'understand' it that way. Do you have any references to your claims?
mschuster91 13y ago
Oh no, please not ANOTHER codec in the mix. Hell, we don't have a single codec that works OOTB in all popular browsers without external software (I consider IE, FF, Chrome, Safari and their mobile counterparts). For now, it's WebM, Ogg and H264 which one has to transcode and store just for shipping a video to desktop and mobile. And while we're talking about mobile, I'm sure that SoC decoding support will take not 2015 to arrive, rather than 2016 - give or take a couple more years because some patent troll will always dig up some dirt.
- vitno 13y ago
  Please consider why we don't have a single codec that works OOTB. H264 has all sorts of nasty licensing stuff, which Daala is not subject to. It should also avoid all valid patent claims because it is based on lapped transforms as opposed to DCTs. also, Ogg isn't a codec... it's a container. WebM is a totally different problem which is mostly not supported, my understanding is, by Microsoft and Apple due to political reasons. This isn't something that Daala impedes. It's probably even more politically possible to adopt Daala than WebM due to the origin (Xiph/Mozilla).
  - mschuster91 13y ago
    I know ogg is a container, I just never can remember the names of the individual codecs. And as a matter of adoption rates, which devices actually ship Ogg audio/video support? Next to none do it in HW. And who guarantees that no one holds some "shadowed" patents on something just enough related to Daala to impede it? And... who says Apple won't fk on standards like they do at the moment, did with Flash/X11/... before, and will ignore Daala while shipping their own stuff?
    - matthewmacleod 13y ago
      As far as I'm aware: - Apple support standard MPEG4 formats at the moment - Flash was not a standard, and - Apple don\t currently ship proprietary video or audio codecs. Let's face it - Vorbis solved a problem that theoretically existed, but had minimal practical impact. The same applies to modern video codecs. When the Ogg formats have provided genuine utility they are used (see e.g. Speex in Siri and Google products) - and what would be really nice would be a free-as-in-patents, hardware-supported, high-performance video codec which can be implemented by all major vendors. Maybe it'll turn out that way.
Already__Taken 13y ago
Should I stop refreshing this page hoping for more? http://www.xiph.org/video/ http://www.xiph.org/video/
- Jasper_ 13y ago
  He said he's going to continue working on these videos. He actually has scripts for two more planned out. Same exact job, just on somebody else's pay.
  - Already__Taken 13y ago
    Sweet. They must take a ton of effort to make.
Jasper_ 13y ago
Monty was one of the smartest engineers I worked with at Red Hat. Brilliant guy, quick on his feet. I'm a bit disappointed he's moving on, but at the same time, he belongs at Mozilla. Once all the engineers are in the same room, Daala is going to kick ass.

183 points by bsimpson 13y ago

jph 13y ago

This is excellent news. Monty Montgomery is among my hero developers for nearly two decades now, building Xiph, Ogg, Vorbis, Theora, and the like. Mozilla and Monty sounds like a wonderful match for creating free open source codecs, and bringing them to everyone. Congratulations to Mozilla and Monty!

Jasper_ 13y ago
Don't forget cdparanoia!

yeukhon 13y ago

So that's him living in MA working remote. He did not show up at monday meeting!

aw3c2 13y ago

Direct link to his announcement: https://plus.google.com/110063726540320603118/posts/PdXWDAyTj2f https://plus.google.com/110063726540320603118/posts/PdXWDAyT...

vitno 13y ago

Check out his fantastic demo pages for a look at the work being done on Daala. http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/daala/demo1.shtml http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/daala/demo1.shtml This is great news!

jzzskijj 13y ago

Excellent news that H.265 has competition, but at the same time I am feeling a bit pessimistic. Consider Theora for example: Even if there is open source VHDL available for Theora, it was only implemented in Nios II and LEON processors and according to Wikipedia "there are currently no Theora decoder chips in production". Even a license free codec wasn't enough to attract interest from manufacturers. Youtube delivers huge part of the "relevant" video material in Internet. And Google has their own video codec. Would they include Mozilla's codec into their browser (and smartphones) instead and start encoding videos in their own service with Mozilla's codec? Quite unlikely. At least the article doesn't mention anything about DRM, so would it be enough for Netflix?

atopal 13y ago
> Excellent news that H.265 has competition, but at the same time I am feeling a bit pessimistic. Daala is not meant to compete with H.265, it's meant to compete with the successor of H.265. As he mentions it won't be ready for production before the end of 2015.
ghjkld 13y ago
I'm sure Google will be just as enthusiastic about incorporating Mozilla's new video codec daala as Mozilla is about adding Google's image codec webp.
- cromwellian 13y ago
  Seems like a big case of NIH syndrome if you ask me.
  - noir_lord 13y ago
    That's exactly what it is and while all these teams spend time inventing technology that is 98% the same as the existing stuff the people with the technology that is 100% the same as the existing stuff (often proprietary) laugh all the way to the bank. It's 2013, there are dozens of codecs, many open enough to be used, just flaming pick one.
    - vitno 13y ago
      I'm not sure you realize how different Daala is from any other video codec in usage. It's ALSO royalty-free with a permissive FOSS license. It will also ideally be significantly better than anything else on the market.
      - cromwellian 13y ago
        It also won't arrive optimistically until almost 2016, effectively making it dead in the water if H265 gets rolled out in every smartphone, or if WebM is everywhere. There are lots of promising codecs that were proposed to be different. Wavelets used to get lots of hype too. It's a very risky bet to just punt for 3+ years on the hope that promising research will pan out into something viable. Research projects shouldn't delay moving forward on stuff that's ready now.

robinduckett 13y ago

Sorry to be the one to do this, but Relevant XKCD: http://xkcd.com/927/ http://xkcd.com/927/

mschuster91 13y ago
Relevant yes, but in this case the requirement for a new standard doesn't arise from vanity or "more use cases", but rather from the fact that video compression is a patent minefield.
mbq 13y ago
Situation: there are 0 free and libre state-of-art video codecs; Xiph is working on one supported by Red Hat and Mozilla. Mozilla buys Monty Montgomery from Red Hat. Soon: Situation: there are 0 free and libre state-of-art video codecs; Xiph is working on one supported by Red Hat and Mozilla. ... very relevant.
- gillianseed 13y ago
  How are VP8/VP9 (webm) not 'free and libre'?
  - mbq 13y ago
    As I understand, Google can go evil and use its patents to impose certain restrictions, like killing potential independent VP10 project or messing with webm's royalty-free status.
    - cromwellian 13y ago
      Citation?
    - gillianseed 13y ago
      Since Google are offering them under a _irrevocable_ royalty free licence I don't see how you could have come to 'understand' it that way. Do you have any references to your claims?

mschuster91 13y ago

Oh no, please not ANOTHER codec in the mix. Hell, we don't have a single codec that works OOTB in all popular browsers without external software (I consider IE, FF, Chrome, Safari and their mobile counterparts). For now, it's WebM, Ogg and H264 which one has to transcode and store just for shipping a video to desktop and mobile. And while we're talking about mobile, I'm sure that SoC decoding support will take not 2015 to arrive, rather than 2016 - give or take a couple more years because some patent troll will always dig up some dirt.

vitno 13y ago
Please consider why we don't have a single codec that works OOTB. H264 has all sorts of nasty licensing stuff, which Daala is not subject to. It should also avoid all valid patent claims because it is based on lapped transforms as opposed to DCTs. also, Ogg isn't a codec... it's a container. WebM is a totally different problem which is mostly not supported, my understanding is, by Microsoft and Apple due to political reasons. This isn't something that Daala impedes. It's probably even more politically possible to adopt Daala than WebM due to the origin (Xiph/Mozilla).
- mschuster91 13y ago
  I know ogg is a container, I just never can remember the names of the individual codecs. And as a matter of adoption rates, which devices actually ship Ogg audio/video support? Next to none do it in HW. And who guarantees that no one holds some "shadowed" patents on something just enough related to Daala to impede it? And... who says Apple won't fk on standards like they do at the moment, did with Flash/X11/... before, and will ignore Daala while shipping their own stuff?
  - matthewmacleod 13y ago
    As far as I'm aware: - Apple support standard MPEG4 formats at the moment - Flash was not a standard, and - Apple don\t currently ship proprietary video or audio codecs. Let's face it - Vorbis solved a problem that theoretically existed, but had minimal practical impact. The same applies to modern video codecs. When the Ogg formats have provided genuine utility they are used (see e.g. Speex in Siri and Google products) - and what would be really nice would be a free-as-in-patents, hardware-supported, high-performance video codec which can be implemented by all major vendors. Maybe it'll turn out that way.

Already__Taken 13y ago

Should I stop refreshing this page hoping for more? http://www.xiph.org/video/ http://www.xiph.org/video/

Jasper_ 13y ago
He said he's going to continue working on these videos. He actually has scripts for two more planned out. Same exact job, just on somebody else's pay.
- Already__Taken 13y ago
  Sweet. They must take a ton of effort to make.

Jasper_ 13y ago

Monty was one of the smartest engineers I worked with at Red Hat. Brilliant guy, quick on his feet. I'm a bit disappointed he's moving on, but at the same time, he belongs at Mozilla. Once all the engineers are in the same room, Daala is going to kick ass.