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Again this is an example of people who have no idea what is actually going on in schools trying to make policy without consulting those who do know what goes on

Again this is an example of people who have no idea what is actually going on in schools trying to make policy without consulting those who do know what goes on in schools. The problem with e-books in schools below the College level is the readers get broken. High School age and below kids tend to be careless. They throw their back packs down, play keep away with them, etc... So traditional e-book readers don't work. That said, as someone responsible for the IT needs of a school, I've been experimenting with one of these: http://www.peeweepc.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=70&idcategory=2 http://www.peeweepc.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=70&#3... The Ruggedized nature and tablet mode seem to make it possible (again I'm still experimenting and am a little nervous about the hinge at this point). So don't get me wrong, I think a solution exists. But the Governor just wants an immediate cheap solution and that's not the way e-books are going to happen.

Adlai 17y ago
I don't think he wants traditional E-books. What I imagine when I hear the phrase "open-source online textbooks", I think of websites where you can navigate through chapters, appendices, etc -- similar to how some texts are already available online (i.e. Peter Seibel's Practical Common Lisp, available not as an e-book but as a website, at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ )
- TomOfTTB 17y ago
  Well the problem with that is you still need textbooks in the classroom. If he wants to replace actual textbooks he needs to find a way to put them in the classrom. That's going to require a reader (There are actual studies, lots of them in fact, that show students learn more when they can follow along in a textbook so you couldn't solve the problem with a projector for example)
  - boryas 17y ago
    I don't know about those studies, but as a student I hated having to lug textbooks around but was lucky enough that my high school rarely if ever made it a requirement. The school and its students are doing well regardless. Maybe they could be doing even better, but at least they have light backpacks :) With regards to the Governor's plan, this seems like a really good idea in general, and at least a sign that our Governor is willing to reform education in a meaningful (i.e. not by commissioning book committees of the type that Feynman derided) way.
  - Adlai 17y ago
    You could have computers for each student in the classroom, but I imagine that would be quite expensive. I don't see the problem with a projector. The teacher can control what material is displayed, and can thus choose to display relevant material for the current lesson. Yes, this relies on the teacher knowing what they're doing, but the entire school system does anyways. If a student wants to have their own reference in class, it would be cheaper and more educational for the student to take notes on whatever topics they found interesting or wanted to have on paper. I'd be interested to look at those studies, though.
    - TomOfTTB 17y ago
      I'll try to find a few online and post them here when I have more time. But the gist is that there's a cognitive advantage to reading which in turn means reading along causes the material to be absorbed better. I've tried to think back to my own experience to verify the findings but I can't think of any definitive examples for or against
pmorici 17y ago
seems like a good opportunity to teach kids to be responsible.
- TomOfTTB 17y ago
  Good in theory, bad in practice. The kids need to have text books by law. The School can't really do anything to punish them (except maybe detention). So in the end you spend a lot of money trying to get kids to stop acting the way kids naturally act.
- andrewf 17y ago
  s/kids/users/. This is basically telling users that they have to alter their existing behavior to work around flaws in your implementation. You end up with users who are grumpy and/or uncompliant. "Be responsible" is easy to throw out there when the users happen to be children, but it won't magically make them stop acting like kids.
jsz0 17y ago
Textbooks aren't invincible either. A rugged education oriented e-book reader may end up costing less than replacing textbooks on a regular basis as they become damaged and outdated.
- whatusername 17y ago
  hang on - I just realised something? Are the textbooks purchased/owned by the school? As-in - they can be handed down to next years class? That's fantastic.
- blhack 17y ago
  My biggest disappointment, when I got my kindle, was how flimsy the thing feels... I was dreaming about a device that was going to travel with me everywhere I went (the way my old palm pilots, which are what I used to use for ebooks, did)...
gaius 17y ago
Again this is an example of people who have no idea what is actually going on in schools trying to make policy without consulting those who do know what goes on in schools I hear this argument all the time from people who want to silence debate on education but the fact is: we all went to school. We are all as qualified as anyone else to comment on it.
- dinkumthinkum 17y ago
  That's like saying "We've all been to the doctor's office, therefore we are all qualified to discuss how diagnose and treat Guillain-Barré syndrome."
yungchin 17y ago
I think the important part of the plan is not to put books on computers; it's the open-source part. Whether schools eventually opt for a print version of the text is a matter of preference. It is not the printing that makes textbooks too expensive, it is the lack of competition in the market. With open-sourced texts, everybody can offer a print version.

Adlai 17y ago

I don't think he wants traditional E-books. What I imagine when I hear the phrase "open-source online textbooks", I think of websites where you can navigate through chapters, appendices, etc -- similar to how some texts are already available online (i.e. Peter Seibel's Practical Common Lisp, available not as an e-book but as a website, at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ )

TomOfTTB 17y ago
Well the problem with that is you still need textbooks in the classroom. If he wants to replace actual textbooks he needs to find a way to put them in the classrom. That's going to require a reader (There are actual studies, lots of them in fact, that show students learn more when they can follow along in a textbook so you couldn't solve the problem with a projector for example)
- boryas 17y ago
  I don't know about those studies, but as a student I hated having to lug textbooks around but was lucky enough that my high school rarely if ever made it a requirement. The school and its students are doing well regardless. Maybe they could be doing even better, but at least they have light backpacks :) With regards to the Governor's plan, this seems like a really good idea in general, and at least a sign that our Governor is willing to reform education in a meaningful (i.e. not by commissioning book committees of the type that Feynman derided) way.
- Adlai 17y ago
  You could have computers for each student in the classroom, but I imagine that would be quite expensive. I don't see the problem with a projector. The teacher can control what material is displayed, and can thus choose to display relevant material for the current lesson. Yes, this relies on the teacher knowing what they're doing, but the entire school system does anyways. If a student wants to have their own reference in class, it would be cheaper and more educational for the student to take notes on whatever topics they found interesting or wanted to have on paper. I'd be interested to look at those studies, though.
  - TomOfTTB 17y ago
    I'll try to find a few online and post them here when I have more time. But the gist is that there's a cognitive advantage to reading which in turn means reading along causes the material to be absorbed better. I've tried to think back to my own experience to verify the findings but I can't think of any definitive examples for or against

pmorici 17y ago

seems like a good opportunity to teach kids to be responsible.

TomOfTTB 17y ago
Good in theory, bad in practice. The kids need to have text books by law. The School can't really do anything to punish them (except maybe detention). So in the end you spend a lot of money trying to get kids to stop acting the way kids naturally act.
andrewf 17y ago
s/kids/users/. This is basically telling users that they have to alter their existing behavior to work around flaws in your implementation. You end up with users who are grumpy and/or uncompliant. "Be responsible" is easy to throw out there when the users happen to be children, but it won't magically make them stop acting like kids.

jsz0 17y ago

Textbooks aren't invincible either. A rugged education oriented e-book reader may end up costing less than replacing textbooks on a regular basis as they become damaged and outdated.

whatusername 17y ago
hang on - I just realised something? Are the textbooks purchased/owned by the school? As-in - they can be handed down to next years class? That's fantastic.
blhack 17y ago
My biggest disappointment, when I got my kindle, was how flimsy the thing feels... I was dreaming about a device that was going to travel with me everywhere I went (the way my old palm pilots, which are what I used to use for ebooks, did)...

gaius 17y ago

Again this is an example of people who have no idea what is actually going on in schools trying to make policy without consulting those who do know what goes on in schools I hear this argument all the time from people who want to silence debate on education but the fact is: we all went to school. We are all as qualified as anyone else to comment on it.

dinkumthinkum 17y ago
That's like saying "We've all been to the doctor's office, therefore we are all qualified to discuss how diagnose and treat Guillain-Barré syndrome."

yungchin 17y ago

I think the important part of the plan is not to put books on computers; it's the open-source part. Whether schools eventually opt for a print version of the text is a matter of preference. It is not the printing that makes textbooks too expensive, it is the lack of competition in the market. With open-sourced texts, everybody can offer a print version.