4 ms·

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which one can say, “Look! This is s

by cdoxsey 13y ago

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which one can say, “Look! This is something new”? It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time. No one remembers the former generations, and even those yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow them. (Ecclesiastes 1:9-11)

thaumasiotes 13y ago
Or, from Kipling: As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of man / There are only four things certain since Social Progress began / That the dog returns to his vomit, and the sow returns to her mire / And the burnt fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire
javajosh 13y ago
This is only true until something new comes along. History repeats itself...until it doesn't. After a long period of relative stability, the human population is exploding, for example. Of course, in terms of human motivation, human suffering, sin and virtue, indeed: there is nothing new under the sun. But the instruments of suffering change. Rebecca Sedwick killed herself at the age of 12 because of cyber-bullying. 12-year-old girls have certainly killed themselves for being bullied before; but now the bullying occurs online. Is that new? Governments have always sought absolute information, and absolute power, over the people: power seeks more power. But technology has allowed the US government to seek out this power in secret. Is that new? You can always define things such that there is nothing new: Diana Nyad swam from Cuba to Florida, the first person to do so - and at the remarkable age of 64. But was long distance, open-water swimming through shark-infested waters new? No. Striving hard for what may seem to other people to be a wasteful and arbitrary token of accomplishment? No, that's as old as time itself. (Interestingly, and I think quite remarkably, you can go the other way: in a sense, everything is new. Eating this apple? I have eaten apples before. Others have eaten other apples. But I never eaten this apple, right now, before now. Part of me doesn't like this reductio, but another part of me thinks that it's not ad absurdum at all.)
asveikau 13y ago
Perhaps a fair observation for someone living in biblical times. (And with no knowledge of several technological upheavals that came before or after.) OTOH one can do what people tend to do with religious texts rightly or wrongly, look beyond its obvious falseness and charitably reinterpret this. Maybe this is even an expression of conservation of mass; that we are not creating newness, simply re-arranging matter. Or perhaps it says that despite technological change (possibly deemed surface-level change even if nontrivial), some essential part of life and society continues to resemble its former self. I will say this part is much more accurate: > No one remembers the former generations, and even those yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow them. I'm often bummed out by descriptions of famous and important people from 100+ years ago. Name after name of people you've never heard of, all deceased. It can be depressing to think of our present, or even our future, and the future of those that will come long after us, as appearing in the same light.
- cdoxsey 13y ago
  > Name after name of people you've never heard of, all deceased. It can be depressing to think of our present, or even our future, and the future of those that will come long after us, as appearing in the same light. Yep. Most of the book is along these lines. I don't always understand it, but sometimes it really hits home. Like this: "I hated all the things I had toiled for under the sun, because I must leave them to the one who comes after me. And who knows whether that person will be wise or foolish? Yet they will have control over all the fruit of my toil into which I have poured my effort and skill under the sun." In a community that values "do"ers so highly it's depressing to consider where all that work ends up. How many products are wiped out, how many companies bought and dismantled and how much of the code you pour your heart and soul into now will even be around in 10 years?

by cdoxsey 13y ago

thaumasiotes 13y ago

Or, from Kipling: As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of man / There are only four things certain since Social Progress began / That the dog returns to his vomit, and the sow returns to her mire / And the burnt fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire

javajosh 13y ago

This is only true until something new comes along. History repeats itself...until it doesn't. After a long period of relative stability, the human population is exploding, for example. Of course, in terms of human motivation, human suffering, sin and virtue, indeed: there is nothing new under the sun. But the instruments of suffering change. Rebecca Sedwick killed herself at the age of 12 because of cyber-bullying. 12-year-old girls have certainly killed themselves for being bullied before; but now the bullying occurs online. Is that new? Governments have always sought absolute information, and absolute power, over the people: power seeks more power. But technology has allowed the US government to seek out this power in secret. Is that new? You can always define things such that there is nothing new: Diana Nyad swam from Cuba to Florida, the first person to do so - and at the remarkable age of 64. But was long distance, open-water swimming through shark-infested waters new? No. Striving hard for what may seem to other people to be a wasteful and arbitrary token of accomplishment? No, that's as old as time itself. (Interestingly, and I think quite remarkably, you can go the other way: in a sense, everything is new. Eating this apple? I have eaten apples before. Others have eaten other apples. But I never eaten this apple, right now, before now. Part of me doesn't like this reductio, but another part of me thinks that it's not ad absurdum at all.)

asveikau 13y ago

Perhaps a fair observation for someone living in biblical times. (And with no knowledge of several technological upheavals that came before or after.) OTOH one can do what people tend to do with religious texts rightly or wrongly, look beyond its obvious falseness and charitably reinterpret this. Maybe this is even an expression of conservation of mass; that we are not creating newness, simply re-arranging matter. Or perhaps it says that despite technological change (possibly deemed surface-level change even if nontrivial), some essential part of life and society continues to resemble its former self. I will say this part is much more accurate: > No one remembers the former generations, and even those yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow them. I'm often bummed out by descriptions of famous and important people from 100+ years ago. Name after name of people you've never heard of, all deceased. It can be depressing to think of our present, or even our future, and the future of those that will come long after us, as appearing in the same light.

cdoxsey 13y ago
> Name after name of people you've never heard of, all deceased. It can be depressing to think of our present, or even our future, and the future of those that will come long after us, as appearing in the same light. Yep. Most of the book is along these lines. I don't always understand it, but sometimes it really hits home. Like this: "I hated all the things I had toiled for under the sun, because I must leave them to the one who comes after me. And who knows whether that person will be wise or foolish? Yet they will have control over all the fruit of my toil into which I have poured my effort and skill under the sun." In a community that values "do"ers so highly it's depressing to consider where all that work ends up. How many products are wiped out, how many companies bought and dismantled and how much of the code you pour your heart and soul into now will even be around in 10 years?