20 ms·

Why mathematicians make great comedy writers

63 points by prateekj 13y ago

ColinWright 13y ago
I remember an interview with Tom Lehrer in which he said that writing lyrics is like solving a puzzle - I can see the similarity.
- prateekj 13y ago
  Exactly! Writing something that is both meaningful and interesting is like solving a puzzle.
- mkndr 13y ago
  Absolutely true. I am a songwriter who happens to know how to program. Equivalences abound.
- charlesism 13y ago
  Thank goodness someone mentioned Tom Lehrer. He's "exhibit A" in the case for funny mathematicians. I wish there were a Youtube clip of Tom performing "New Math", but this is close: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHuRcDnJOAQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHuRcDnJOAQ
weeksie 13y ago
Yeah, I find plot construction in fiction writing to be very similar to doing software development. There's a general high level outline that you start with, then as you follow the story the complexity increases as you have to tie in disparate story lines.
- prateekj 13y ago
  The same logic can be applied to a variety of other fields as well. Many formulations within mathematics, signal processing, machine learning, AI, etc follow this. Higher level problems in real life usually have to deal with unknown terrains and the techniques need to adapt to that.
tieTYT 13y ago
I performed stand up comedy for over a year and I can relate to this (but I've got a computer science background). I was a one-liner instead of a story teller (even though I wished I was a story teller). Here's how my background in computer science helped: * Getting a joke to work best often requires A/B testing * I tried to choose my best jokes objectively. I'd watch my videos and keep track of the jokes that got the laughs consistently. I then wrote a program to sort jokes by the best ratio. * There are lots of rules (though they are fuzzy). This kind of reminds me of programming language syntax. Like you should attempt to make the punchline the last part of the sentence. Start with your funniest joke, end with your second funniest (this rule might be reversed, I can't remember). * Try to be as concise as possible. Usually if you can cut out words your joke will be more effective. This reminds me of removing DRY violations in code. * Some jokes are really technical. They'd consistently get a laugh if every word was said in the exact tone and order they're supposed to, but if anything about the joke changed, it wouldn't "compile". * Like programming, it'll probably take 10 years to get good at it (see http://norvig.com/21-days.html http://norvig.com/21-days.html ) * Sometimes you'd think of a tag for an already existing joke. A tag is a joke that only makes sense in the context of the immediately preceding joke. This is like adding a feature to a legacy code base. It often requires refactoring and maintenance. I like the way Marc Maron put it: One liners are the Math majors of comedy. Story tellers are the English majors.
- prateekj 13y ago
  "Getting a joke to work best often requires A/B testing" - So true! We all do that in real life without realizing it.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
    - svantana 13y ago
      In this case I think it means "trying out versions that isn't your optimal estimate a priori". If I were a comedian, I probably wouldn't dare do that, I would live for each performance and try to do each one optimally. Although I've heard from my comedian friends that to get really good, you need to bomb once in a while.
jl6 13y ago
I'd probably put it down to mathematics and comedy writing both being high-IQ activities.
- richardkiss 13y ago
  I wish that were true. I've performed stand-up comedy for nine years. I have an MA in mathematics from UCLA. And have been programming since I was a kid. My humor is definitely more on the clever side (http://richardkiss.com/ http://richardkiss.com/). Unfortunately, stand-up comedy is mostly dominated these by people trying to show how cool and selfish they are. All too often the punch line is a variant of "I'm an edgy and anti-social loser", aka the "I'm a piece of shit" school of comedy (a phrase I coined a few years back). This is often coupled with a careless (carefree?) towards knowledge and fact, and discussion of mundane or trashy details about the comic's life that requires an audacious quantity of (undeserved) confidence to pull off, lest the audience realize they're being hoodwinked into listening to narcissistic drivel. When most comics are not clever, the audience who show up are the kind of audiences who are not interested in clever humor. Clever people go to a comedy show and realize it's not aimed at them. This makes it even more difficult to try to do clever humor that requires the audience to think. Unless you're famous (and bring your own audience), live performances tend to be mass-market/lowest-common-denominator. I find this very frustrating. I wish I could figure out a way to create a business model for comics whose style is not the dominant mode.
jamesbritt 13y ago
Interesting book: http://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-Humor-Study-Logic-ebook/dp/B0042JU7F8/ http://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-Humor-Study-Logic-ebook/dp... Mathematics and Humor: A Study of the Logic of Humor by Paulos, John Allen
- richardkiss 13y ago
  Great book. Tiny audience.
sanjiallblue 13y ago
I don't think the current generation of Simpsons writers would be the best group of writers to put this comparison to, but rather to the writers of shows like Futurama (which as I'm sure many devotees will know, consisted of a staff of mathematicians that actually developed proofs for plot continuity and one-offs). Though, I don't think mathematicians really is the ideal here (hell, I'd even go one further and put magicians ahead of mathematicians). I prefer Conan O'Brien's observation that comedy is most similar to music and how musicians often make good comedians (and why stand-up comedy is inundated with musical comedians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_comedians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_comedians). Because comedy is about character, point of view, timing and rhythm more than it is about formula. There are plenty of comedians out in the world that make a living having read their share of formulaic stand-up books, tell their lazy formulaic jokes, get their easy laughs, collect a paycheck and burn out into obscurity or languish in D-List infamy. Or more relevantly, write mediocre episodes of an animated sitcom that stopped being funny 12 seasons ago aimed at a fan-base that watches out of habit. Mathematics can provide the latter, but the former takes an approach that goes beyond the mathematical. That isn't to say that great mathematics can't produce great material, but like the mathematics of the Eulers, the Pythagorians, the Euclids, The Turings, and so many others, it takes subverting the problem at a slightly different angle.
- tieTYT 13y ago
  > comedy is most similar to music ... why stand-up comedy is inundated with musical comedians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_comedians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_comedians No no no, you've got it all wrong. Comedy is most similar to acting! Look, I found a bigger list than you: http://www.listal.com/actors/comedian/all http://www.listal.com/actors/comedian/all Re: musicians. Perhaps that's just because this skill can be directly used on stage. Your entire set can be musical. I can't bring a laptop on stage and program as an entire set. Rather, I've never seen anyone do that. Also, musicians probably already have stage experience. > Mathematics can provide the latter, but the former takes an approach that goes beyond the mathematical. That isn't to say that great mathematics can't produce great material, but like the mathematics of the Eulers, the Pythagorians, the Euclids, The Turings, and so many others, it takes subverting the problem at a slightly different angle. What are you basing this off of? If you look at the top tier stand up comedians, they all have a variety of backgrounds.
kangaroo5383 13y ago
Clever humor, a product of wit, mental sharpness which usually comes with the ability to make correlations quickly and creatively. Mathematicians are trained to understand systems and manipulate it with the confines of certain rules - which is not unlike taking social system, beliefs, etc, and applying logic creatively and insightfully to create witty humor!
- prateekj 13y ago
  "Clever humor, a product of wit, mental sharpness which usually comes with the ability to make correlations quickly and creatively." - That's a good way to put it. Couldn't agree more!
pcurve 13y ago
PhD turned to comedy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FTY3LyJgog http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FTY3LyJgog
gbog 13y ago
There is a notable book called Laughter by French philosopher Bergson. Its argument is that comical effects are reducible to something mechanical (mathematical) (mis)applied on some living thing. This could be a better explanation than what I read here and in the article.
- jseliger 13y ago
  If you're interested in the subject, see Inside Jokes: Using Humor to Reverse-Engineer the Mind by Hurley, Dennett, and someone else. They critique Bergson (and many others) and conclude something interesting but which I can't remember because I'm traveling and don't have the book handy.

63 points by prateekj 13y ago

I remember an interview with Tom Lehrer in which he said that writing lyrics is like solving a puzzle - I can see the similarity.

prateekj 13y ago
Exactly! Writing something that is both meaningful and interesting is like solving a puzzle.
mkndr 13y ago
Absolutely true. I am a songwriter who happens to know how to program. Equivalences abound.
charlesism 13y ago
Thank goodness someone mentioned Tom Lehrer. He's "exhibit A" in the case for funny mathematicians. I wish there were a Youtube clip of Tom performing "New Math", but this is close: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHuRcDnJOAQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHuRcDnJOAQ

weeksie 13y ago

Yeah, I find plot construction in fiction writing to be very similar to doing software development. There's a general high level outline that you start with, then as you follow the story the complexity increases as you have to tie in disparate story lines.

prateekj 13y ago
The same logic can be applied to a variety of other fields as well. Many formulations within mathematics, signal processing, machine learning, AI, etc follow this. Higher level problems in real life usually have to deal with unknown terrains and the techniques need to adapt to that.

tieTYT 13y ago

I performed stand up comedy for over a year and I can relate to this (but I've got a computer science background). I was a one-liner instead of a story teller (even though I wished I was a story teller). Here's how my background in computer science helped: * Getting a joke to work best often requires A/B testing * I tried to choose my best jokes objectively. I'd watch my videos and keep track of the jokes that got the laughs consistently. I then wrote a program to sort jokes by the best ratio. * There are lots of rules (though they are fuzzy). This kind of reminds me of programming language syntax. Like you should attempt to make the punchline the last part of the sentence. Start with your funniest joke, end with your second funniest (this rule might be reversed, I can't remember). * Try to be as concise as possible. Usually if you can cut out words your joke will be more effective. This reminds me of removing DRY violations in code. * Some jokes are really technical. They'd consistently get a laugh if every word was said in the exact tone and order they're supposed to, but if anything about the joke changed, it wouldn't "compile". * Like programming, it'll probably take 10 years to get good at it (see http://norvig.com/21-days.html http://norvig.com/21-days.html ) * Sometimes you'd think of a tag for an already existing joke. A tag is a joke that only makes sense in the context of the immediately preceding joke. This is like adding a feature to a legacy code base. It often requires refactoring and maintenance. I like the way Marc Maron put it: One liners are the Math majors of comedy. Story tellers are the English majors.

prateekj 13y ago
"Getting a joke to work best often requires A/B testing" - So true! We all do that in real life without realizing it.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - svantana 13y ago
    In this case I think it means "trying out versions that isn't your optimal estimate a priori". If I were a comedian, I probably wouldn't dare do that, I would live for each performance and try to do each one optimally. Although I've heard from my comedian friends that to get really good, you need to bomb once in a while.

jl6 13y ago

I'd probably put it down to mathematics and comedy writing both being high-IQ activities.

richardkiss 13y ago
I wish that were true. I've performed stand-up comedy for nine years. I have an MA in mathematics from UCLA. And have been programming since I was a kid. My humor is definitely more on the clever side (http://richardkiss.com/ http://richardkiss.com/). Unfortunately, stand-up comedy is mostly dominated these by people trying to show how cool and selfish they are. All too often the punch line is a variant of "I'm an edgy and anti-social loser", aka the "I'm a piece of shit" school of comedy (a phrase I coined a few years back). This is often coupled with a careless (carefree?) towards knowledge and fact, and discussion of mundane or trashy details about the comic's life that requires an audacious quantity of (undeserved) confidence to pull off, lest the audience realize they're being hoodwinked into listening to narcissistic drivel. When most comics are not clever, the audience who show up are the kind of audiences who are not interested in clever humor. Clever people go to a comedy show and realize it's not aimed at them. This makes it even more difficult to try to do clever humor that requires the audience to think. Unless you're famous (and bring your own audience), live performances tend to be mass-market/lowest-common-denominator. I find this very frustrating. I wish I could figure out a way to create a business model for comics whose style is not the dominant mode.

jamesbritt 13y ago

Interesting book: http://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-Humor-Study-Logic-ebook/dp/B0042JU7F8/ http://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-Humor-Study-Logic-ebook/dp... Mathematics and Humor: A Study of the Logic of Humor by Paulos, John Allen

richardkiss 13y ago
Great book. Tiny audience.

sanjiallblue 13y ago

I don't think the current generation of Simpsons writers would be the best group of writers to put this comparison to, but rather to the writers of shows like Futurama (which as I'm sure many devotees will know, consisted of a staff of mathematicians that actually developed proofs for plot continuity and one-offs). Though, I don't think mathematicians really is the ideal here (hell, I'd even go one further and put magicians ahead of mathematicians). I prefer Conan O'Brien's observation that comedy is most similar to music and how musicians often make good comedians (and why stand-up comedy is inundated with musical comedians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_comedians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_comedians). Because comedy is about character, point of view, timing and rhythm more than it is about formula. There are plenty of comedians out in the world that make a living having read their share of formulaic stand-up books, tell their lazy formulaic jokes, get their easy laughs, collect a paycheck and burn out into obscurity or languish in D-List infamy. Or more relevantly, write mediocre episodes of an animated sitcom that stopped being funny 12 seasons ago aimed at a fan-base that watches out of habit. Mathematics can provide the latter, but the former takes an approach that goes beyond the mathematical. That isn't to say that great mathematics can't produce great material, but like the mathematics of the Eulers, the Pythagorians, the Euclids, The Turings, and so many others, it takes subverting the problem at a slightly different angle.

tieTYT 13y ago
> comedy is most similar to music ... why stand-up comedy is inundated with musical comedians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_comedians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_comedians No no no, you've got it all wrong. Comedy is most similar to acting! Look, I found a bigger list than you: http://www.listal.com/actors/comedian/all http://www.listal.com/actors/comedian/all Re: musicians. Perhaps that's just because this skill can be directly used on stage. Your entire set can be musical. I can't bring a laptop on stage and program as an entire set. Rather, I've never seen anyone do that. Also, musicians probably already have stage experience. > Mathematics can provide the latter, but the former takes an approach that goes beyond the mathematical. That isn't to say that great mathematics can't produce great material, but like the mathematics of the Eulers, the Pythagorians, the Euclids, The Turings, and so many others, it takes subverting the problem at a slightly different angle. What are you basing this off of? If you look at the top tier stand up comedians, they all have a variety of backgrounds.

kangaroo5383 13y ago

Clever humor, a product of wit, mental sharpness which usually comes with the ability to make correlations quickly and creatively. Mathematicians are trained to understand systems and manipulate it with the confines of certain rules - which is not unlike taking social system, beliefs, etc, and applying logic creatively and insightfully to create witty humor!

prateekj 13y ago
"Clever humor, a product of wit, mental sharpness which usually comes with the ability to make correlations quickly and creatively." - That's a good way to put it. Couldn't agree more!

pcurve 13y ago

PhD turned to comedy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FTY3LyJgog http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FTY3LyJgog

gbog 13y ago

There is a notable book called Laughter by French philosopher Bergson. Its argument is that comical effects are reducible to something mechanical (mathematical) (mis)applied on some living thing. This could be a better explanation than what I read here and in the article.

jseliger 13y ago
If you're interested in the subject, see Inside Jokes: Using Humor to Reverse-Engineer the Mind by Hurley, Dennett, and someone else. They critique Bergson (and many others) and conclude something interesting but which I can't remember because I'm traveling and don't have the book handy.