3 ms·

> I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. Who's say

> I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. Who's saying that? > If we want to actually solve this problem, we need to go all the way to the beginning: middle school, where girls mysteriously start losing interest in technical fields. What do you mean by "go to middle school" - who do you suggest should take what action in that particular venue? > mysteriously What's mysterious about it? What expectations do you have that this observation runs counter to? What needs to be changed in our mental model of this system, so that instead of this being a mystery it becomes a predictable of the system's properties? (At which point we can start asking "how to change the system so that we get different outcomes".) (This is me being curious, not Socratic, BTW.)

betterunix 13y ago
"> I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. Who's saying that?" Well, the article itself: Promoting equality in your organization If you start actively working to attack inequality in your organization, I guarantee you’ll realize you were already a feminist. When your heart’s in the right place and you’re constantly examining your own actions and your organization’s, you start to notice bias and prejudice in more and more places. Most disturbingly, you notice it in yourself. The implication in all of this is that there is inequality in our field that is due to our behavior i.e. the behavior of adults in the workforce. It is simply assumed that if we promote equality in our profession, and make it a team effort, then we will get equality. "What do you mean by "go to middle school" - who do you suggest should take what action in that particular venue?" I did not claim to have a solution, I was just pointing out where the problem lies. At some point in a girl's life, long before she is even thinking about college, something happens to undermine her interest in science and math. Years down the road, she winds up majoring in something that is not engineering or computer science, and fails to acquire the technical skills needed for a career in such fields by any other means. Obviously this is not something that all girls experience, but to a large extent it is the reason that engineering schools have so few women and so many men. Maybe it is something girls are seeing on TV. Maybe it is something they are reading on the Internet. It is pretty clear that a young teenager is not seeing whatever prejudice exists in the workplace (how often do middle schoolers wander into your office?). "What's mysterious about it? What expectations do you have that this observation runs counter to?" Absent some reason to think otherwise, why would anyone assume that girls who have a talent and interest in math before a certain age would suddenly abandon their interest upon reaching that age? If puberty is the answer, why does it not happen to boys? For that matter, why does it seem to happen to a different degree in our country than in others?
- Morendil 13y ago
  > the behavior of adults in the workforce Not the same as "the men in the workforce", agreed?
- Dewie 13y ago
  The OP might mean it in a more general sense in that we all have our biases, men and women included. It's just that men's biases might be more problematic in this case, since they're the majority in this field so any common bias they may have gets compounded.
- Jtsummers 13y ago
  > The implication in all of this is that there is inequality in our field that is due to our behavior i.e. the behavior of adults in the workforce. It is simply assumed that if we promote equality in our profession, and make it a team effort, then we will get equality. I feel like you're getting something else out of this article than I did. The previous section, heading: Wanting equality isn’t enough, seems entirely contrary to the conclusion that you're drawn. The author is indicating that promoting/wanting isn't enough. We have to develop an understanding of why the situation is what it is, and actively work on shifting our culture to rectify it (assuming you think it's a problem in the first place, many around me don't).
- foobarbazqux 13y ago
  Social pressures both to differentiate and conform to a particular sub-group during adolescence, and the kinds of groups that girls and boys tend to form. At least in part.
Jtsummers 13y ago
I'm only replying to the second question. In the US at least, it seems (and at one point I might have been able to point to the studies) that interest in STEM drops off[1] for female students around middle school, same for minority students. Many efforts at outreach, then, have tried to focus on introducing extracurricular academic programs at those students (often by targetting schools with higher female or minority populations) in an effort to cultivate their interest and maintain it through high school, in the hopes that it can increase the number participating in STEM in college and, later, the workforce. At this point, however, I don't know what measurable impact those programs have had, I should probably talk to the folks I know that are still participating in the programs at a level where they monitor the trends. Regarding who: Anyone working in STEM with the patience to deal with 12 year olds. Volunteer with FIRST Robotics teams or other after school or summer programs. Female and minority volunteers, in particular, as knowing that there are female and minority STEM workers isn't the same as knowing female and minority STEM workers, it can make a huge difference for kids. [1] EDIT: It may not be a drop off. It's been too long since I was involved with this, but perhaps instead of them losing interest it's that they don't develop the interest at this point?
- tedunangst 13y ago
  You know what's a guaranteed method for killing a 12 year old's interest in a subject? Have a 40 year old tell them how cool it is.
  - Jtsummers 13y ago
    Show, don't tell. Provide an opportunity, guide them through solving interesting problems, set up the problems in ways that can appeal to them: competitions like FIRST Robotics; real world connections like rudimentary or introductory mechanical and electrical engineering and how it can solve their problems. I can tell my functional programming hating program lead all day that it's great and very applicable to what we do, or I can write up a program we've been needing for months in two days and 200 clear lines versus the 2000 line C# version that's still got bugs in it.

betterunix 13y ago

"> I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. Who's saying that?" Well, the article itself: Promoting equality in your organization If you start actively working to attack inequality in your organization, I guarantee you’ll realize you were already a feminist. When your heart’s in the right place and you’re constantly examining your own actions and your organization’s, you start to notice bias and prejudice in more and more places. Most disturbingly, you notice it in yourself. The implication in all of this is that there is inequality in our field that is due to our behavior i.e. the behavior of adults in the workforce. It is simply assumed that if we promote equality in our profession, and make it a team effort, then we will get equality. "What do you mean by "go to middle school" - who do you suggest should take what action in that particular venue?" I did not claim to have a solution, I was just pointing out where the problem lies. At some point in a girl's life, long before she is even thinking about college, something happens to undermine her interest in science and math. Years down the road, she winds up majoring in something that is not engineering or computer science, and fails to acquire the technical skills needed for a career in such fields by any other means. Obviously this is not something that all girls experience, but to a large extent it is the reason that engineering schools have so few women and so many men. Maybe it is something girls are seeing on TV. Maybe it is something they are reading on the Internet. It is pretty clear that a young teenager is not seeing whatever prejudice exists in the workplace (how often do middle schoolers wander into your office?). "What's mysterious about it? What expectations do you have that this observation runs counter to?" Absent some reason to think otherwise, why would anyone assume that girls who have a talent and interest in math before a certain age would suddenly abandon their interest upon reaching that age? If puberty is the answer, why does it not happen to boys? For that matter, why does it seem to happen to a different degree in our country than in others?

Morendil 13y ago
> the behavior of adults in the workforce Not the same as "the men in the workforce", agreed?
Dewie 13y ago
The OP might mean it in a more general sense in that we all have our biases, men and women included. It's just that men's biases might be more problematic in this case, since they're the majority in this field so any common bias they may have gets compounded.
Jtsummers 13y ago
> The implication in all of this is that there is inequality in our field that is due to our behavior i.e. the behavior of adults in the workforce. It is simply assumed that if we promote equality in our profession, and make it a team effort, then we will get equality. I feel like you're getting something else out of this article than I did. The previous section, heading: Wanting equality isn’t enough, seems entirely contrary to the conclusion that you're drawn. The author is indicating that promoting/wanting isn't enough. We have to develop an understanding of why the situation is what it is, and actively work on shifting our culture to rectify it (assuming you think it's a problem in the first place, many around me don't).
foobarbazqux 13y ago
Social pressures both to differentiate and conform to a particular sub-group during adolescence, and the kinds of groups that girls and boys tend to form. At least in part.

Jtsummers 13y ago

I'm only replying to the second question. In the US at least, it seems (and at one point I might have been able to point to the studies) that interest in STEM drops off[1] for female students around middle school, same for minority students. Many efforts at outreach, then, have tried to focus on introducing extracurricular academic programs at those students (often by targetting schools with higher female or minority populations) in an effort to cultivate their interest and maintain it through high school, in the hopes that it can increase the number participating in STEM in college and, later, the workforce. At this point, however, I don't know what measurable impact those programs have had, I should probably talk to the folks I know that are still participating in the programs at a level where they monitor the trends. Regarding who: Anyone working in STEM with the patience to deal with 12 year olds. Volunteer with FIRST Robotics teams or other after school or summer programs. Female and minority volunteers, in particular, as knowing that there are female and minority STEM workers isn't the same as knowing female and minority STEM workers, it can make a huge difference for kids. [1] EDIT: It may not be a drop off. It's been too long since I was involved with this, but perhaps instead of them losing interest it's that they don't develop the interest at this point?

tedunangst 13y ago
You know what's a guaranteed method for killing a 12 year old's interest in a subject? Have a 40 year old tell them how cool it is.
- Jtsummers 13y ago
  Show, don't tell. Provide an opportunity, guide them through solving interesting problems, set up the problems in ways that can appeal to them: competitions like FIRST Robotics; real world connections like rudimentary or introductory mechanical and electrical engineering and how it can solve their problems. I can tell my functional programming hating program lead all day that it's great and very applicable to what we do, or I can write up a program we've been needing for months in two days and 200 clear lines versus the 2000 line C# version that's still got bugs in it.