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What do we want to achieve? Markets, with all of their permutations, are just a few tools in our toolbox. I completely agree with you that the debate needs to

by rw 17y ago

What do we want to achieve? Markets, with all of their permutations, are just a few tools in our toolbox. I completely agree with you that the debate needs to be made much less ideological and much more precise, but we cannot pretend these discussions are happening in a vacuum. I am a fan of Rawls' "veil of ignorance" line of reasoning. This is probably because I want to embrace "luck" not as an excuse for domination, but as something orthogonal to control and subjugation: diversity necessary for us to successfully traverse the fitness landscape, hopefully enabling us, collectively, to move towards the stars and friendly posthuman intelligences.

nazgulnarsil 17y ago
markets are not really a thing. they are just what happens in the absence of people shoving guns in other peoples faces. in the absence of force the only way to get what you want is to offer other people things that they want in exchange. this is civilization, the alternatives are barbarism.
- sgibat 17y ago
  that isn't entirely true. small groups behave more like communes. think of small tribes or family units. everyone has to pull their weight, but much is done simply for the good of others or for the good of the group as a whole. the domination of the market only emerges when a group grows to a certain size. i would suggest that civilization requires both communes and markets to function properly -- basically, communes interacting with other communes and individuals in a market. markets may get you what you want, but to get things done, groups must behave like communes, all working together -- you do not barter over what you will get out of individual tasks. true, tasks are done in exchange for a continued wage, and the establishment of a job is done in a market. but once you are within a group, what is most effective? doing every task because you are paid to do so, or because you want the product to be as good as possible? I think that ties into one of the reasons that startups are so much more effective than large corporations; if I can try to put my finger on it, pride for the product and group cohesiveness. i don't know what the answer is, but I just want you to consider that markets are not only not the only tool humans have used to cultivate civilization, but they are not even the first tool. and when technology progresses to the point where we can give every individual a chance at a healthy and productive life at no cost to society, they will certainly not be the last.
  - nazgulnarsil 17y ago
    what your describing is continuing contracts. this is covered by markets. many informal exchanges would be better off if they were formalized in contracts.
- cchooper 17y ago
  But why do you need to offer them something when you could just take it? The answer is that they will shove a gun in your face if you do. Property rights are just as much based on force as any other law.

by rw 17y ago

nazgulnarsil 17y ago

markets are not really a thing. they are just what happens in the absence of people shoving guns in other peoples faces. in the absence of force the only way to get what you want is to offer other people things that they want in exchange. this is civilization, the alternatives are barbarism.

sgibat 17y ago
that isn't entirely true. small groups behave more like communes. think of small tribes or family units. everyone has to pull their weight, but much is done simply for the good of others or for the good of the group as a whole. the domination of the market only emerges when a group grows to a certain size. i would suggest that civilization requires both communes and markets to function properly -- basically, communes interacting with other communes and individuals in a market. markets may get you what you want, but to get things done, groups must behave like communes, all working together -- you do not barter over what you will get out of individual tasks. true, tasks are done in exchange for a continued wage, and the establishment of a job is done in a market. but once you are within a group, what is most effective? doing every task because you are paid to do so, or because you want the product to be as good as possible? I think that ties into one of the reasons that startups are so much more effective than large corporations; if I can try to put my finger on it, pride for the product and group cohesiveness. i don't know what the answer is, but I just want you to consider that markets are not only not the only tool humans have used to cultivate civilization, but they are not even the first tool. and when technology progresses to the point where we can give every individual a chance at a healthy and productive life at no cost to society, they will certainly not be the last.
- nazgulnarsil 17y ago
  what your describing is continuing contracts. this is covered by markets. many informal exchanges would be better off if they were formalized in contracts.
cchooper 17y ago
But why do you need to offer them something when you could just take it? The answer is that they will shove a gun in your face if you do. Property rights are just as much based on force as any other law.