4 ms·

I think you're confused. The huge problem is that other languages don't have anything for deployment that looks as easy as mod_php. And yes, all manner of pro

by eevee 13y ago

I think you're confused. The huge problem is that other languages don't have anything for deployment that looks as easy as mod_php. And yes, all manner of professions grumble amongst themselves that newcomers are using inferior tools. Find some professional photographers and ask what they think of phone cameras.

rofl 13y ago
The huge problem is you are complaining about tools used by other developers. Pick up tools that work best for you and let others choose tools that work best for them. There is no inferior tool in this world. You select a tool based on your need, affordability and choice. The important part is not the tool itself, it is what you make with your tool. We remember Leonardo da Vinci for his creations, not for the tools he had used to make those creations happen. As of now, the most popular cameras in Flickr community are Apple iPhone 5, Apple iPhone 4S and Apple iPhone 4. All of these are phone cameras. You can see awesome photographs taken with these cameras. If you make a rule to accept photographs taken only using expensive DSLRs, sites like Flickr will not exist. And the world will be little less beautiful without sites like Flickr. By the way, Flickr is also powered by PHP.
- ericd 13y ago
  I think you're misinterpreting what he's saying... I think he wishes that the other languages would make deployment as easy as it is for PHP. I do too - I use Rails, Django and Flask, but I always dread project and server setup because it's almost always a bitch - there's some unwieldy virtual environment thing, or you have to set up two servers that talk to each other, or there are pathing issues and it's using the wrong version of the language, and the list goes on. On the other hand mod_php generally deploys correctly the first time everywhere, at least partly because it's so simple. Things like passenger help a lot, but even passenger requires a lot more configuration than mod_php.
  - rofl 13y ago
    "I think he wishes that the other languages would make deployment as easy as it is for PHP" Oops! You are right. Thanks. My honest mistake. He said in another thread "Right, because we'd spit on it and advertise Rust or Go" [1]. I read that and that created the confusion in my mind probably. Whenever I see any post about PHP on HN, some people (almost all the Snake lovers, and new Go enthusiasts converted from Snake community) start bashing PHP. That's so bad. So, when I saw above mentioned comment [1], I just wanted to tell him that "PHP is just a tool and that is as good as any other programming language if not better. You can be happy with your language. No need to say anything bad about any other language.". If someone likes Python or Go, that's fine. Why should he or she try to prove other languages inferior? mod_php surely makes it easy for anyone to get up and running PHP. It is not clear why Snake lovers, who bash PHP always, couldn't create a good and easy deployment solution so far! Just want to make it clear, I don't have any problem with Python or Go or any other programming language, I just think it is time for the Snake lovers and Google lovers to STOP bashing other languages and users of other languages. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6567001 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6567001
    - telephonetemp 13y ago
      There's no need to invent a derisive (or at least an apparently derisive) nickname for a language simply because you dislike it or its community.
      - rofl 13y ago
        First, I don't dislike Python (or Go). Second, I don't dislike Python (or Go) community. Third, a group of the Python community (and people from that group who migrated from Python to Go) that bashes other languages and communities at every opportunity deserve such nickname. It is the venomous Snakes that bite others for no reason.
    - eevee 13y ago
      That other comment was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek :) I wrote the "fractal of bad design" article, though, so your biting commentary isn't misdirected. But I stress that I rag on PHP in particular because I feel it does a unique disservice to my field. There are plenty of languages I don't like or otherwise wish to avoid that I haven't felt the need to write a scathing deconstruction of. Deployment is hard. I deliberately said mod_php seems easy because it still has caveats, and most of the reasons it works have significant downsides in the language. But this is something I think about regularly and am trying to find a solution to. I mention photography exactly because that snootiness is a double-edged sword: perhaps there are now many more bad photos, but there are also many more photographers, and with that ultimately comes more good photos as well. The road to improvement across the board is always more accessible education + finding a way to marry the convenience of the new easy tools with the power and finesse of the old ones. In that vein, you may notice that phone camera hardware has been getting increasingly respectable lately, and that people tend to (rightly) gripe when a new phone comes out with a really crappy camera. That's how I feel about PHP: I don't begrudge anyone for using it, but the rest of the field has improved considerably and it's a shame that cruftier equipment is still popular. I don't know how you can be a good craftsperson without being able to judge the tools at your disposal, for good or for bad. I know why I like Python, and I know what Python lacks that I keep an eye out for in other languages. If you don't like Python, that's fascinating and I would love to know what about your perspective is so radically different, how it could be fixed, how it could be addressed in a similar language, or even what language does it better entirely. The intricate personal attachment to our tools is ridiculous, and discouraging criticism of them will only make us all worse at avoiding the bad ones and designing better ones.

by eevee 13y ago

rofl 13y ago

The huge problem is you are complaining about tools used by other developers. Pick up tools that work best for you and let others choose tools that work best for them. There is no inferior tool in this world. You select a tool based on your need, affordability and choice. The important part is not the tool itself, it is what you make with your tool. We remember Leonardo da Vinci for his creations, not for the tools he had used to make those creations happen. As of now, the most popular cameras in Flickr community are Apple iPhone 5, Apple iPhone 4S and Apple iPhone 4. All of these are phone cameras. You can see awesome photographs taken with these cameras. If you make a rule to accept photographs taken only using expensive DSLRs, sites like Flickr will not exist. And the world will be little less beautiful without sites like Flickr. By the way, Flickr is also powered by PHP.

ericd 13y ago
I think you're misinterpreting what he's saying... I think he wishes that the other languages would make deployment as easy as it is for PHP. I do too - I use Rails, Django and Flask, but I always dread project and server setup because it's almost always a bitch - there's some unwieldy virtual environment thing, or you have to set up two servers that talk to each other, or there are pathing issues and it's using the wrong version of the language, and the list goes on. On the other hand mod_php generally deploys correctly the first time everywhere, at least partly because it's so simple. Things like passenger help a lot, but even passenger requires a lot more configuration than mod_php.
- rofl 13y ago
  "I think he wishes that the other languages would make deployment as easy as it is for PHP" Oops! You are right. Thanks. My honest mistake. He said in another thread "Right, because we'd spit on it and advertise Rust or Go" [1]. I read that and that created the confusion in my mind probably. Whenever I see any post about PHP on HN, some people (almost all the Snake lovers, and new Go enthusiasts converted from Snake community) start bashing PHP. That's so bad. So, when I saw above mentioned comment [1], I just wanted to tell him that "PHP is just a tool and that is as good as any other programming language if not better. You can be happy with your language. No need to say anything bad about any other language.". If someone likes Python or Go, that's fine. Why should he or she try to prove other languages inferior? mod_php surely makes it easy for anyone to get up and running PHP. It is not clear why Snake lovers, who bash PHP always, couldn't create a good and easy deployment solution so far! Just want to make it clear, I don't have any problem with Python or Go or any other programming language, I just think it is time for the Snake lovers and Google lovers to STOP bashing other languages and users of other languages. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6567001 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6567001
  - telephonetemp 13y ago
    There's no need to invent a derisive (or at least an apparently derisive) nickname for a language simply because you dislike it or its community.
    - rofl 13y ago
      First, I don't dislike Python (or Go). Second, I don't dislike Python (or Go) community. Third, a group of the Python community (and people from that group who migrated from Python to Go) that bashes other languages and communities at every opportunity deserve such nickname. It is the venomous Snakes that bite others for no reason.
  - eevee 13y ago
    That other comment was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek :) I wrote the "fractal of bad design" article, though, so your biting commentary isn't misdirected. But I stress that I rag on PHP in particular because I feel it does a unique disservice to my field. There are plenty of languages I don't like or otherwise wish to avoid that I haven't felt the need to write a scathing deconstruction of. Deployment is hard. I deliberately said mod_php seems easy because it still has caveats, and most of the reasons it works have significant downsides in the language. But this is something I think about regularly and am trying to find a solution to. I mention photography exactly because that snootiness is a double-edged sword: perhaps there are now many more bad photos, but there are also many more photographers, and with that ultimately comes more good photos as well. The road to improvement across the board is always more accessible education + finding a way to marry the convenience of the new easy tools with the power and finesse of the old ones. In that vein, you may notice that phone camera hardware has been getting increasingly respectable lately, and that people tend to (rightly) gripe when a new phone comes out with a really crappy camera. That's how I feel about PHP: I don't begrudge anyone for using it, but the rest of the field has improved considerably and it's a shame that cruftier equipment is still popular. I don't know how you can be a good craftsperson without being able to judge the tools at your disposal, for good or for bad. I know why I like Python, and I know what Python lacks that I keep an eye out for in other languages. If you don't like Python, that's fascinating and I would love to know what about your perspective is so radically different, how it could be fixed, how it could be addressed in a similar language, or even what language does it better entirely. The intricate personal attachment to our tools is ridiculous, and discouraging criticism of them will only make us all worse at avoiding the bad ones and designing better ones.