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You know whenever I see spats like this I feel compelled to point that governments cause such profound economic distortion that we really can't speak of what a

You know whenever I see spats like this I feel compelled to point that governments cause such profound economic distortion that we really can't speak of what a 'free' society would be actually be like - it's so far removed from anything humanity has known in a very long time. We're all (more or less) coders here, right? What happens when we tinker with a big, complex, undocumented system that nobody really understands? Government as a concept isn't so much tinkering as it is a blindfolded child refactoring by typing with his elbows.

rayiner 13y ago
The economy is itself a distortion caused by government. In the state of nature there are no economies because as soon as you accumulate a little capital someone clubs you on the head and takes it away. This is why most libertarians are of the statist variety. They talk about the economic distortion caused by government, but what they mean is the distortion caused by the parts of government they don't like (I.e. besides the police, courts, etc). This is a perfectly fine position, but is susceptible to the economic arguments I listed.
- clienthunter 13y ago
  As an economist I assure you that if I noted a correlation between head clubbing and capital accumulation I would take offensive and defensive steps to protect my head. In fact most would, leading to a nice little equilibrium where head clubbing is not a worthwhile strategy. They may even form a protection racket, and call it "Police". Economics is not the study of capital, it's the study of trade - which incidentally is so natural we even observe it in the animal kingdom. Few libertarians would deny the need for at least occasional collaboration, but that is not the same as government. Governments are universally wasteful of resources, susceptible to corruption, resistant to changing needs, and have a nasty habit of claiming absolute moral authority on things...which in turn has a nasty tendency to start wars. It is, objectively, a limiting and archaic system that does us all a great deal of damage.
  - ihnorton 13y ago
    The beauty of this protection racket equilibrium is that everyone gets exactly the amount of protection they can afford. This leads to rapid and efficient re-allocation of resources (via the mafia/police) when inefficient organizations cannot meet their obligations.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    > As an economist I assure you that if I noted a correlation between head clubbing and capital accumulation I would take offensive and defensive steps to protect my head. With what? You're an economist, not an MMA fighter. > In fact most would, leading to a nice little equilibrium where head clubbing is not a worthwhile strategy. They may even form a protection racket, and call it "Police". Right, so the nerds get together and beat down the MMA fighters and create laws against "murder" and "theft" and pretty soon you've got government. We're living in your nice little equilibrium.
    - clienthunter 13y ago
      > With what? You're an economist, not an MMA fighter. A) you don't know that, B) everyone else would be an MMA fighter? > Right, so the nerds get together and beat down the MMA fighters and create laws against "murder" and "theft"... Premise construction > ...and pretty soon you've got government. Magic > We're living in your nice little equilibrium. Conclusion I can't even accuse you basing your argument on a logical fallacy, because there isn't an argument present.

rayiner 13y ago

The economy is itself a distortion caused by government. In the state of nature there are no economies because as soon as you accumulate a little capital someone clubs you on the head and takes it away. This is why most libertarians are of the statist variety. They talk about the economic distortion caused by government, but what they mean is the distortion caused by the parts of government they don't like (I.e. besides the police, courts, etc). This is a perfectly fine position, but is susceptible to the economic arguments I listed.

clienthunter 13y ago
As an economist I assure you that if I noted a correlation between head clubbing and capital accumulation I would take offensive and defensive steps to protect my head. In fact most would, leading to a nice little equilibrium where head clubbing is not a worthwhile strategy. They may even form a protection racket, and call it "Police". Economics is not the study of capital, it's the study of trade - which incidentally is so natural we even observe it in the animal kingdom. Few libertarians would deny the need for at least occasional collaboration, but that is not the same as government. Governments are universally wasteful of resources, susceptible to corruption, resistant to changing needs, and have a nasty habit of claiming absolute moral authority on things...which in turn has a nasty tendency to start wars. It is, objectively, a limiting and archaic system that does us all a great deal of damage.
- ihnorton 13y ago
  The beauty of this protection racket equilibrium is that everyone gets exactly the amount of protection they can afford. This leads to rapid and efficient re-allocation of resources (via the mafia/police) when inefficient organizations cannot meet their obligations.
- rayiner 13y ago
  > As an economist I assure you that if I noted a correlation between head clubbing and capital accumulation I would take offensive and defensive steps to protect my head. With what? You're an economist, not an MMA fighter. > In fact most would, leading to a nice little equilibrium where head clubbing is not a worthwhile strategy. They may even form a protection racket, and call it "Police". Right, so the nerds get together and beat down the MMA fighters and create laws against "murder" and "theft" and pretty soon you've got government. We're living in your nice little equilibrium.
  - clienthunter 13y ago
    > With what? You're an economist, not an MMA fighter. A) you don't know that, B) everyone else would be an MMA fighter? > Right, so the nerds get together and beat down the MMA fighters and create laws against "murder" and "theft"... Premise construction > ...and pretty soon you've got government. Magic > We're living in your nice little equilibrium. Conclusion I can't even accuse you basing your argument on a logical fallacy, because there isn't an argument present.