5 ms·

Gender discussion on HN can feel like men coming together to discuss their observations of women like a group of biologists. It can be a little dehumanizing.

parennoob 13y ago
I wonder if it feels the other way in women's studies classes. I understand those are largely female-populated.
- sambeau 13y ago
  I hate to disappoint but women's studies classes don't spend their time discussing men. The clue is in the name.
  - parennoob 13y ago
    Decent amount of snark there, but could you back it up and have a women's studies class without discussing some form of male oppression or domination at least once?
  - sambeau 13y ago
    Discussing some form of male oppression or domination is not the same as discussing men.
  - foobarbazqux 13y ago
    Women are defined relative to men, just as men are defined relative to women. If there were no men, women would just be "people". In discussing one, you implicitly discuss the other. Whatever makes women into women, men are not that. Except, "woman" and "man" can also be seen as archetypes, and it's possible to integrate both, at least to some degree.
  - mkr-hn 13y ago
    This is contrary to everything I've heard from women who tried a women's studies class. Apparently the patriarchy hypothesis features prominently.
- Dewie 13y ago
  One can try to visit feminists blogs and web-communities. I am a man, and I'm often left with a feeling of being 'the other', sometimes unfavourably so. The most obvious cause is that it is often a community of mostly women discussing both male and female characteristics. A more subtle clue is that it seems that they refer to men as "males", but women as simply "women". Some communities are even hostile to the idea of male feminists - in turn some male feminists call themselves feminist allies, instead. Those are my limited experiences, anyway. I'm sure some one will say that I've only encountered the most bigoted communities for me to have this impression.
  - cine 13y ago
    Welcome to my every day life: One can try to visit tech websites, or even tech offices. I am a woman, and I'm often left with a feeling of being 'the other', sometimes unfavourably so. The most obvious cause is that it is often a community of mostly men discussing both male and female characteristics. A more subtle clue is that it seems that they refer to women as "females", but men as simply "men". Some communities are even hostile to the idea of feminists - in turn some feminists forego speaking up about their feelings, and pretending to be "just another bro".
    - Dewie 13y ago
      Ah yes, the old switcharoo. How quaint. One crucial difference is, of course, that feminists only talk about gender and things that are related to that. Tech-communities might sometimes talk about gender, but most might only talk about it when it is somewhat relevant to their tech-interests. Feminists, on the other hand, have a practical monopoly on gender-opinions as far as mainstream opinion is concerned. And they're mostly women, and might even reject men into their circles. Programmers being mostly men might bias things like technological choices, but the bias towards women in gender-theory (might as well say feminist-theory) doesn't change a niche thing such as what programming language powers the client-side web, it heavily influences popular opinion on what men are and what they should be like, even though they are not really a represented group. That might not be a problem if some vocal feminists didn't try to work against alternative paradigms of gender theory, but in my experience, they do. Your last point would be more analogous to my own if you said that some communities are even hostile to the idea of women programmers (if that is indeed true).

parennoob 13y ago

I wonder if it feels the other way in women's studies classes. I understand those are largely female-populated.

sambeau 13y ago
I hate to disappoint but women's studies classes don't spend their time discussing men. The clue is in the name.
- parennoob 13y ago
  Decent amount of snark there, but could you back it up and have a women's studies class without discussing some form of male oppression or domination at least once?
- sambeau 13y ago
  Discussing some form of male oppression or domination is not the same as discussing men.
- foobarbazqux 13y ago
  Women are defined relative to men, just as men are defined relative to women. If there were no men, women would just be "people". In discussing one, you implicitly discuss the other. Whatever makes women into women, men are not that. Except, "woman" and "man" can also be seen as archetypes, and it's possible to integrate both, at least to some degree.
- mkr-hn 13y ago
  This is contrary to everything I've heard from women who tried a women's studies class. Apparently the patriarchy hypothesis features prominently.
Dewie 13y ago
One can try to visit feminists blogs and web-communities. I am a man, and I'm often left with a feeling of being 'the other', sometimes unfavourably so. The most obvious cause is that it is often a community of mostly women discussing both male and female characteristics. A more subtle clue is that it seems that they refer to men as "males", but women as simply "women". Some communities are even hostile to the idea of male feminists - in turn some male feminists call themselves feminist allies, instead. Those are my limited experiences, anyway. I'm sure some one will say that I've only encountered the most bigoted communities for me to have this impression.
- cine 13y ago
  Welcome to my every day life: One can try to visit tech websites, or even tech offices. I am a woman, and I'm often left with a feeling of being 'the other', sometimes unfavourably so. The most obvious cause is that it is often a community of mostly men discussing both male and female characteristics. A more subtle clue is that it seems that they refer to women as "females", but men as simply "men". Some communities are even hostile to the idea of feminists - in turn some feminists forego speaking up about their feelings, and pretending to be "just another bro".
  - Dewie 13y ago
    Ah yes, the old switcharoo. How quaint. One crucial difference is, of course, that feminists only talk about gender and things that are related to that. Tech-communities might sometimes talk about gender, but most might only talk about it when it is somewhat relevant to their tech-interests. Feminists, on the other hand, have a practical monopoly on gender-opinions as far as mainstream opinion is concerned. And they're mostly women, and might even reject men into their circles. Programmers being mostly men might bias things like technological choices, but the bias towards women in gender-theory (might as well say feminist-theory) doesn't change a niche thing such as what programming language powers the client-side web, it heavily influences popular opinion on what men are and what they should be like, even though they are not really a represented group. That might not be a problem if some vocal feminists didn't try to work against alternative paradigms of gender theory, but in my experience, they do. Your last point would be more analogous to my own if you said that some communities are even hostile to the idea of women programmers (if that is indeed true).