7 ms·

The Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant (2005)

72 points by clay 17y ago

clay 17y ago
I was surprised this wasn't posted here before. I would encourage everyone here to donate to the Methusaleh Foundation. You can promise to donate $25,000 and join the "300", which we're expecting will fill up by the end of the summer. :)
- alexandros 17y ago
  Sometimes stuff gets buried.. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=402205 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=402205
lionhearted 17y ago
What a coincidence. A hacker friend just pointed me towards to this related piece today: http://www.ted.com/talks/aubrey_de_grey_says_we_can_avoid_aging.html http://www.ted.com/talks/aubrey_de_grey_says_we_can_avoid_ag... Worth a watch. Talks about some of the details, addresses the same logical/ethical fallacies that hold people back.
reasonattlm 17y ago
Moral: you get things done by getting things done, and the largest obstacles are conceptual - something that should be near and dear to many folk here. I'm also suprised that the Fable wasn't previously posted. On the subject of the 300, you might read this detained rationale by Michael Rae: http://www.longevitymeme.org/articles/viewarticle.cfm?article_id=23 http://www.longevitymeme.org/articles/viewarticle.cfm?articl...
- tc 17y ago
  I'd hate for someone reading your comment to miss the article because they assume it is just a piece about procrastination. This article is a compelling story that suggests there is a moral imperative to engage in anti-aging research, and that we have become blind, in our acceptance of our current mortality, to both the suffering that it causes, and to the fact that we can now hope to do something about it.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
tc 17y ago
This is a great modern fable. It overstates the moral imperative, however, by casting people as agents of the dragon, making them actively responsible for the death of others [1]. The truth of the matter is that working to defeat mortally is supererogatory -- as a young Spock put it, an act which is morally praiseworthy but not morally obligatory. [1] Similar in spirit to the TOS episode, "A Taste of Armageddon," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Taste_of_Armageddon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Taste_of_Armageddon
GavinB 17y ago
There's a common perception in the academic community that they face heavy resistance from those who think that "death gives life meaning," and that ending aging would harm "human dignity." These feelings may be strong among philosophers and ethicists and the debate may rage in journals, but I don't think there's nearly so much resistance in the general population. The challenge is proving that dramatic longevity extension is really possible. Most of modern medicine is really treatment of symptoms, not cures. We don't understand or have effective treatments for the underlying causes of most conditions.
- reasonattlm 17y ago
  There are some pro-engineered-longevity ethicists. This fellow, for example, is a good example of someone mired in stereotypical ethicist viewpoints (e.g. social justice, redistribution, equality uber alles, etc) nonetheless constructing a rationale within his paradigm for all-out longevity research as fast as possible: http://colinfarrelly.blogspot.com/2009/06/idealism-meets-realism-tackling-chronic.html http://colinfarrelly.blogspot.com/2009/06/idealism-meets-rea...
  - rw 17y ago
    Golly, a transhumanist interested in social justice issues! If you're a humanist, you ought to be a transhumanist. Eliezer argues convincingly on this point. What is so hard about noting that if you are a transhumanist, you ought to be a humanist?
- gaius 17y ago
  The onus on "ethicists" is to do the work in what they consider to be an ethical way. But all I see is people who've nothing to contribute to science themselves but nevertheless feel entitled to dictate terms to those that have.
radu_floricica 17y ago
To some degree, I blame religion for this. Not the organized, dogmatic kind but the pervasive moral one, which whispers that it is not "right" to want more from life then your peers and your ancestors. Also I think this is the same wider sentiment which applies not only to extending life span but to any kind of enhancement. At least in my culture, talking to a doctor about yourself without having any illness will get you a long stare.
- tptacek 17y ago
  Probably because they're pretty busy treating people who do have illnesses.
  - scorpioxy 17y ago
    I think he was referring to what people consider to be a life-threatening illness. Then again, who's to say what an illness is. Are illnesses only thing that have an immediate threat on your life? What about ones that stop you from doing your job? What about conditions that stop you from living your life normally? In my country and culture, psychological and mental illnesses, which are also "real illnesses" by medical terms, are also given the same stare.
    - deleted 17y ago
      [deleted]
    - asciilifeform 17y ago
      http://yarchive.net/med/lifestyle_drugs.html http://yarchive.net/med/lifestyle_drugs.html
    - jimmyjim 17y ago
      (I'm so very very sorry, but this is an off-topic comment. It seems that I can't comment on old threads, and I cannot send private messages to users either... so I'm stumped, and here I am. You mentioned in one of your posts that you're an owner of the Natural 4000 keyboard - I just received mine from amazon (after picking up some symptoms of RSI) -- I love it, except one little thing that has me thinking that I should return this: the space bar is abnormally hard to depress. Is that so for your 4000 as well? Should I just return this keyboard and get another brand, or should I request a different 4000 without this 'defect'? Thanks, and sorry again for the odd manner of messaging.)
Hexstream 17y ago
Very similar in style to "The dragon in my garage": http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm
reasonattlm 17y ago
For an example of how tantalizingly close researchers are to making real progress in engineering away aspects of aging, you might look at the MitoSENS project at the SENS Foundation. Firstly: mitochondrial DNA damage is convincingly very important in aging. There's a lot of research to support this, and a great deal more research to show how greatly the composition and function of mitochondria determines lifespan differences between species: http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2006/10/how-age-damaged-mitochondria-cause-your-cells-to-damage-you.php http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2006/10/how-age-damaged-m... Secondly, we can move that DNA into the nucleus where it will continue to work to produce the necessary components of mitochondrial machinery long after the DNA in the mitochondria themselves is ragged: http://www.sens.org/index.php?pagename=mitosens http://www.sens.org/index.php?pagename=mitosens And lastly the work of Marisol Corral-Debrinski is basically demonstrating how to do this in practice. Here's a video presentation from SENS3 - she's much further along now: http://richardjschueler.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=57170 http://richardjschueler.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=5717... As an alternative approach, researchers back in 2005 demonstrated an approach to replace all mitochondrial DNA in an organism, doing so in mice. Out with the old, in with the new: http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2005/07/slightly-inside-1.php http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2005/07/slightly-inside-1... One last item: the FDA doesn't permit the development of therapies to treat aging. Period. So there's little venture money for it, and all promising research is then shoehorned into becoming sub-par treatments for specific age-related disease or just abandoned. All meaningful progress will occur in regions of the world where regulation is less horrid. http://www.longevitymeme.org/news/view_news_item.cfm?news_id=3237 http://www.longevitymeme.org/news/view_news_item.cfm?news_id... http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2009/05/the-portions-of-government-focused-on-preventing-new-medicine.php http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2009/05/the-portions-of-g... http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2008/05/envisaging-a-world-without-the-fda.php http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2008/05/envisaging-a-worl...
fluffster 17y ago
This TED talk about aging by Aubrey de Grey is very interesting: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/aubrey_de_grey_says_we_can_avoid_aging.html http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/aubrey_de_grey_says_we_can... And please do think about cryonics once again: http://lesswrong.com/lw/wq/you_only_live_twice/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/wq/you_only_live_twice/
juliend2 17y ago
But what exactly is death? What if it were a reward? What if we were all trying to avoid a beautiful reward?
- req2 17y ago
  But what exactly is a compiler error? What if it were a warning? What if we were all trying to program a forbidden fruit?
- juliend2 17y ago
  Well, Sorry if i'm hurting someone's beliefs with my question. I'm still interested to know about other people's opinion on that question. I found some interesting stuff on this page : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience#Characteristics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience#Character...
  - juliend2 17y ago
    You should not downmod people just because you don't agree with them. That's the Reddit style.
Ardit20 17y ago
I found the fable interesting, liked it even. Well written, it gave me some goosebumps at points. However where are the anti-dragonists. Surely the men on the street might not have the patience to read about an anti-dragon, they might however be willing to hear the process and how aging may be brought to an end. If our kings of our world are ignoring the petitions of our world's anti-dragonists, it seems that they have ye to take to the second stage, to raise the profile of their cause and attract donations and momentum. In the fable, after the anti-dragonists went to the people, it seems they gathered a wide following. This might be because people really wanted to kill the dragon and also because they were told of how such a goal may realisticly be archived. We aren't told much on the other hand, only that some scientist in Oxford is working on aging. What the process is in simple layman language is not explained to combat the strong belief of many people that such people are well in a neverneverland. I liked the fable, however I would like to see those who wrote it to practice what the anti-dragonists practised in the fable. Perhaps right now it is more important to gather momentum.

72 points by clay 17y ago

clay 17y ago

I was surprised this wasn't posted here before. I would encourage everyone here to donate to the Methusaleh Foundation. You can promise to donate $25,000 and join the "300", which we're expecting will fill up by the end of the summer. :)

alexandros 17y ago
Sometimes stuff gets buried.. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=402205 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=402205

lionhearted 17y ago

What a coincidence. A hacker friend just pointed me towards to this related piece today: http://www.ted.com/talks/aubrey_de_grey_says_we_can_avoid_aging.html http://www.ted.com/talks/aubrey_de_grey_says_we_can_avoid_ag... Worth a watch. Talks about some of the details, addresses the same logical/ethical fallacies that hold people back.

reasonattlm 17y ago

Moral: you get things done by getting things done, and the largest obstacles are conceptual - something that should be near and dear to many folk here. I'm also suprised that the Fable wasn't previously posted. On the subject of the 300, you might read this detained rationale by Michael Rae: http://www.longevitymeme.org/articles/viewarticle.cfm?article_id=23 http://www.longevitymeme.org/articles/viewarticle.cfm?articl...

tc 17y ago
I'd hate for someone reading your comment to miss the article because they assume it is just a piece about procrastination. This article is a compelling story that suggests there is a moral imperative to engage in anti-aging research, and that we have become blind, in our acceptance of our current mortality, to both the suffering that it causes, and to the fact that we can now hope to do something about it.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]

tc 17y ago

This is a great modern fable. It overstates the moral imperative, however, by casting people as agents of the dragon, making them actively responsible for the death of others [1]. The truth of the matter is that working to defeat mortally is supererogatory -- as a young Spock put it, an act which is morally praiseworthy but not morally obligatory. [1] Similar in spirit to the TOS episode, "A Taste of Armageddon," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Taste_of_Armageddon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Taste_of_Armageddon

GavinB 17y ago

There's a common perception in the academic community that they face heavy resistance from those who think that "death gives life meaning," and that ending aging would harm "human dignity." These feelings may be strong among philosophers and ethicists and the debate may rage in journals, but I don't think there's nearly so much resistance in the general population. The challenge is proving that dramatic longevity extension is really possible. Most of modern medicine is really treatment of symptoms, not cures. We don't understand or have effective treatments for the underlying causes of most conditions.

reasonattlm 17y ago
There are some pro-engineered-longevity ethicists. This fellow, for example, is a good example of someone mired in stereotypical ethicist viewpoints (e.g. social justice, redistribution, equality uber alles, etc) nonetheless constructing a rationale within his paradigm for all-out longevity research as fast as possible: http://colinfarrelly.blogspot.com/2009/06/idealism-meets-realism-tackling-chronic.html http://colinfarrelly.blogspot.com/2009/06/idealism-meets-rea...
- rw 17y ago
  Golly, a transhumanist interested in social justice issues! If you're a humanist, you ought to be a transhumanist. Eliezer argues convincingly on this point. What is so hard about noting that if you are a transhumanist, you ought to be a humanist?
gaius 17y ago
The onus on "ethicists" is to do the work in what they consider to be an ethical way. But all I see is people who've nothing to contribute to science themselves but nevertheless feel entitled to dictate terms to those that have.

radu_floricica 17y ago

To some degree, I blame religion for this. Not the organized, dogmatic kind but the pervasive moral one, which whispers that it is not "right" to want more from life then your peers and your ancestors. Also I think this is the same wider sentiment which applies not only to extending life span but to any kind of enhancement. At least in my culture, talking to a doctor about yourself without having any illness will get you a long stare.

tptacek 17y ago
Probably because they're pretty busy treating people who do have illnesses.
- scorpioxy 17y ago
  I think he was referring to what people consider to be a life-threatening illness. Then again, who's to say what an illness is. Are illnesses only thing that have an immediate threat on your life? What about ones that stop you from doing your job? What about conditions that stop you from living your life normally? In my country and culture, psychological and mental illnesses, which are also "real illnesses" by medical terms, are also given the same stare.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
  - asciilifeform 17y ago
    http://yarchive.net/med/lifestyle_drugs.html http://yarchive.net/med/lifestyle_drugs.html
  - jimmyjim 17y ago
    (I'm so very very sorry, but this is an off-topic comment. It seems that I can't comment on old threads, and I cannot send private messages to users either... so I'm stumped, and here I am. You mentioned in one of your posts that you're an owner of the Natural 4000 keyboard - I just received mine from amazon (after picking up some symptoms of RSI) -- I love it, except one little thing that has me thinking that I should return this: the space bar is abnormally hard to depress. Is that so for your 4000 as well? Should I just return this keyboard and get another brand, or should I request a different 4000 without this 'defect'? Thanks, and sorry again for the odd manner of messaging.)

Hexstream 17y ago

Very similar in style to "The dragon in my garage": http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm

reasonattlm 17y ago

For an example of how tantalizingly close researchers are to making real progress in engineering away aspects of aging, you might look at the MitoSENS project at the SENS Foundation. Firstly: mitochondrial DNA damage is convincingly very important in aging. There's a lot of research to support this, and a great deal more research to show how greatly the composition and function of mitochondria determines lifespan differences between species: http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2006/10/how-age-damaged-mitochondria-cause-your-cells-to-damage-you.php http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2006/10/how-age-damaged-m... Secondly, we can move that DNA into the nucleus where it will continue to work to produce the necessary components of mitochondrial machinery long after the DNA in the mitochondria themselves is ragged: http://www.sens.org/index.php?pagename=mitosens http://www.sens.org/index.php?pagename=mitosens And lastly the work of Marisol Corral-Debrinski is basically demonstrating how to do this in practice. Here's a video presentation from SENS3 - she's much further along now: http://richardjschueler.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=57170 http://richardjschueler.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=5717... As an alternative approach, researchers back in 2005 demonstrated an approach to replace all mitochondrial DNA in an organism, doing so in mice. Out with the old, in with the new: http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2005/07/slightly-inside-1.php http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2005/07/slightly-inside-1... One last item: the FDA doesn't permit the development of therapies to treat aging. Period. So there's little venture money for it, and all promising research is then shoehorned into becoming sub-par treatments for specific age-related disease or just abandoned. All meaningful progress will occur in regions of the world where regulation is less horrid. http://www.longevitymeme.org/news/view_news_item.cfm?news_id=3237 http://www.longevitymeme.org/news/view_news_item.cfm?news_id... http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2009/05/the-portions-of-government-focused-on-preventing-new-medicine.php http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2009/05/the-portions-of-g... http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2008/05/envisaging-a-world-without-the-fda.php http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2008/05/envisaging-a-worl...

fluffster 17y ago

This TED talk about aging by Aubrey de Grey is very interesting: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/aubrey_de_grey_says_we_can_avoid_aging.html http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/aubrey_de_grey_says_we_can... And please do think about cryonics once again: http://lesswrong.com/lw/wq/you_only_live_twice/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/wq/you_only_live_twice/

juliend2 17y ago

But what exactly is death? What if it were a reward? What if we were all trying to avoid a beautiful reward?

req2 17y ago
But what exactly is a compiler error? What if it were a warning? What if we were all trying to program a forbidden fruit?
juliend2 17y ago
Well, Sorry if i'm hurting someone's beliefs with my question. I'm still interested to know about other people's opinion on that question. I found some interesting stuff on this page : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience#Characteristics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience#Character...
- juliend2 17y ago
  You should not downmod people just because you don't agree with them. That's the Reddit style.

Ardit20 17y ago

I found the fable interesting, liked it even. Well written, it gave me some goosebumps at points. However where are the anti-dragonists. Surely the men on the street might not have the patience to read about an anti-dragon, they might however be willing to hear the process and how aging may be brought to an end. If our kings of our world are ignoring the petitions of our world's anti-dragonists, it seems that they have ye to take to the second stage, to raise the profile of their cause and attract donations and momentum. In the fable, after the anti-dragonists went to the people, it seems they gathered a wide following. This might be because people really wanted to kill the dragon and also because they were told of how such a goal may realisticly be archived. We aren't told much on the other hand, only that some scientist in Oxford is working on aging. What the process is in simple layman language is not explained to combat the strong belief of many people that such people are well in a neverneverland. I liked the fable, however I would like to see those who wrote it to practice what the anti-dragonists practised in the fable. Perhaps right now it is more important to gather momentum.