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> People need to look at OpenSUSE again! Isn't it really beautiful that we actually can do this, now? We can switch platforms within the same day - without rea

> People need to look at OpenSUSE again! Isn't it really beautiful that we actually can do this, now? We can switch platforms within the same day - without real hassle or pain. I mean tell a Windows or Apple user that they need to look at something else, and guess what their answer will be...

Demiurge 13y ago
My guess is "why? everything is working".
- jonathansizz 13y ago
  Or "Why? I've got used to working around all the things that aren't working".
  - Demiurge 13y ago
    Like what?
    - frank_boyd 13y ago
      I'd reply to that: Various types of freedom and a higher degree of respect for your privacy (I know, it's not a cure-all solution, but the next step that needs to be taken by society).
      - Demiurge 13y ago
        Are these things something manufacturers put in the specifications for the computers the sell? Are these things something customers shopping for a computer look for?
        Demiurge 13y ago
        lol it's funny I'm getting downmoded as if I am responsible for the answers to these questions.
- frank_boyd 13y ago
  Actually yes, probably. Most people don't understand the importance of transparency for a real and working democracy. "Transparency" as in "open source code", for example.
  - Demiurge 13y ago
    I agree that they don't understand, and further more, they don't even understand what 'code' is. How computers work, or what the technical innards of the computers have to do with democracy. Frankly, I don't understand the later either :(
    - frank_boyd 13y ago
      > what the technical innards of the computers have to do with democracy. Frankly, I don't understand the later either :( We're about to connect every tiny little aspect of our lives to technology. Everything becomes data that can be stored, measured, interpreted, used for good and nefarious purposes. Code is what manages all these processes. If we let black-box code (closed-source code) control our data, it means we trust those companies and governments who produce this code 100% and beyond the slightest doubt. Given Snowden's revelations about the NSA's abuse of power, it's become pretty obvious that we couldn't make a bigger mistake than trusting nontransparent governments or systems or operating systems or code. Even hardware needs to become open-source sooner or later. Simple question: Can we ever trust voting machines that are not 100% open-source? Of course not.
- jon-wood 13y ago
  Having spent yesterday setting up a new laptop to dual boot Windows and Ubuntu, Ubuntu works far, far better. Windows needed drivers installing for everything from the network interface up. And I'm still having troubles with the network - I can use wifi fine, but the wired connection refuses to pick up an IP with DHCP. Ubuntu on the other hand needed a single change to the boot parameters to make screen brightness adjustments work. (Windows also needed a driver for this). Otherwise it works perfectly.
  - Demiurge 13y ago
    Are you saying Ubuntu has better driver support than Windows?
    - dman 13y ago
      Without question - thats been true for a few years now.
    - hdevalence 13y ago
      I'm not the parent, but that has been my experience. Linux works better out of the box on my machine than Windows 7.
    - puller 13y ago
      I think the point was that it frequently has a simpler install experience, which is true. It doesn't have better driver support for ATI video cards or Broadcom wifi cards.
    - drakeandrews 13y ago
      Yes. A million times yes. About a month ago now, my laptop's windows install decided to take a dive so I reinstalled windows and took it as an opportunity to dual boot ubuntu as well. Ubuntu worked out of the box. I'm still finding things that need drivers a month later in windows.
      - Demiurge 13y ago
        I don't think this opinion can be based on personal experience. One or two computers, especially developers machines are a sample size too small. Also, I've had an opposite experiences. Not to mention that what we most notice is divergence from the past trend. Regardless, I don't think many hardware manufacturers prioritize Linux for their deployment. I can see, however, that since the latest Ubuntu image is at most 6 months old, it can have more built in, while Windows 7 is many years old now, tends to require 'Windows Update' to get all the latest drivers. Overall, however, I think Windows gets way more driver support just because of the market. I don't know how you can argue that.
randallsquared 13y ago
As someone who has installed various distros on desktops and laptops many dozens of times (maybe over a hundred) since 1997, let me point out that while there's a decent chance of having no "real hassle or pain", the chance is not insignificant that you will spend hours trying to fix something that went awry during a reinstall. I'm definitely going to wait a little while to see if other people using packages I use have issues, and see what new tricks we have to pull to use Skype, etc.
- jebblue 13y ago
  Using the latest release of anything usually brings some issues, including Windows and Mac. I used to upgrade each time and with 12.04 I've decided to stay on it until 14.04. Skype, Eclipse, Steam, Netflix all work fine on 12.04 and 12.04's performance is great.
  - ChickeNES 13y ago
    Wait, Netflix works on Linux? When did this happen?
    - jebblue 13y ago
      Yep, at least on Ubuntu 12.04: http://lifehacker.com/5963726/netflix-finally-comes-to-ubuntu-in-the-form-of-an-unofficial-desktop-app http://lifehacker.com/5963726/netflix-finally-comes-to-ubunt...
      - shrikant 13y ago
        To add a little more info to that article ("The app basically packages WINE and Netflix into a simple little desktop app"), the package basically shows you the Netflix site in a Firefox frame with the silverlight plugin installed.
0xEA 13y ago
This argument is akin to saying "isn't it beautiful that I can go from Lion to Mountain Lion within the same day". You aren't changing much, just who packaged the software together.
- surrealize 13y ago
  The point is that in the linux world you're choosing between competing distributors. In your example, they're both from Apple. In the linux world you get a combination of 1. low switching costs between competitors (because, as you point out, most of the software is the same), and 2. competition between distributors. With Microsoft and Apple, if you want to choose between competitors, the cost of switching between them is much higher.

Demiurge 13y ago

My guess is "why? everything is working".

jonathansizz 13y ago
Or "Why? I've got used to working around all the things that aren't working".
- Demiurge 13y ago
  Like what?
  - frank_boyd 13y ago
    I'd reply to that: Various types of freedom and a higher degree of respect for your privacy (I know, it's not a cure-all solution, but the next step that needs to be taken by society).
    - Demiurge 13y ago
      Are these things something manufacturers put in the specifications for the computers the sell? Are these things something customers shopping for a computer look for?
      - Demiurge 13y ago
        lol it's funny I'm getting downmoded as if I am responsible for the answers to these questions.
frank_boyd 13y ago
Actually yes, probably. Most people don't understand the importance of transparency for a real and working democracy. "Transparency" as in "open source code", for example.
- Demiurge 13y ago
  I agree that they don't understand, and further more, they don't even understand what 'code' is. How computers work, or what the technical innards of the computers have to do with democracy. Frankly, I don't understand the later either :(
  - frank_boyd 13y ago
    > what the technical innards of the computers have to do with democracy. Frankly, I don't understand the later either :( We're about to connect every tiny little aspect of our lives to technology. Everything becomes data that can be stored, measured, interpreted, used for good and nefarious purposes. Code is what manages all these processes. If we let black-box code (closed-source code) control our data, it means we trust those companies and governments who produce this code 100% and beyond the slightest doubt. Given Snowden's revelations about the NSA's abuse of power, it's become pretty obvious that we couldn't make a bigger mistake than trusting nontransparent governments or systems or operating systems or code. Even hardware needs to become open-source sooner or later. Simple question: Can we ever trust voting machines that are not 100% open-source? Of course not.
jon-wood 13y ago
Having spent yesterday setting up a new laptop to dual boot Windows and Ubuntu, Ubuntu works far, far better. Windows needed drivers installing for everything from the network interface up. And I'm still having troubles with the network - I can use wifi fine, but the wired connection refuses to pick up an IP with DHCP. Ubuntu on the other hand needed a single change to the boot parameters to make screen brightness adjustments work. (Windows also needed a driver for this). Otherwise it works perfectly.
- Demiurge 13y ago
  Are you saying Ubuntu has better driver support than Windows?
  - dman 13y ago
    Without question - thats been true for a few years now.
  - hdevalence 13y ago
    I'm not the parent, but that has been my experience. Linux works better out of the box on my machine than Windows 7.
  - puller 13y ago
    I think the point was that it frequently has a simpler install experience, which is true. It doesn't have better driver support for ATI video cards or Broadcom wifi cards.
  - drakeandrews 13y ago
    Yes. A million times yes. About a month ago now, my laptop's windows install decided to take a dive so I reinstalled windows and took it as an opportunity to dual boot ubuntu as well. Ubuntu worked out of the box. I'm still finding things that need drivers a month later in windows.
    - Demiurge 13y ago
      I don't think this opinion can be based on personal experience. One or two computers, especially developers machines are a sample size too small. Also, I've had an opposite experiences. Not to mention that what we most notice is divergence from the past trend. Regardless, I don't think many hardware manufacturers prioritize Linux for their deployment. I can see, however, that since the latest Ubuntu image is at most 6 months old, it can have more built in, while Windows 7 is many years old now, tends to require 'Windows Update' to get all the latest drivers. Overall, however, I think Windows gets way more driver support just because of the market. I don't know how you can argue that.

randallsquared 13y ago

As someone who has installed various distros on desktops and laptops many dozens of times (maybe over a hundred) since 1997, let me point out that while there's a decent chance of having no "real hassle or pain", the chance is not insignificant that you will spend hours trying to fix something that went awry during a reinstall. I'm definitely going to wait a little while to see if other people using packages I use have issues, and see what new tricks we have to pull to use Skype, etc.

jebblue 13y ago
Using the latest release of anything usually brings some issues, including Windows and Mac. I used to upgrade each time and with 12.04 I've decided to stay on it until 14.04. Skype, Eclipse, Steam, Netflix all work fine on 12.04 and 12.04's performance is great.
- ChickeNES 13y ago
  Wait, Netflix works on Linux? When did this happen?
  - jebblue 13y ago
    Yep, at least on Ubuntu 12.04: http://lifehacker.com/5963726/netflix-finally-comes-to-ubuntu-in-the-form-of-an-unofficial-desktop-app http://lifehacker.com/5963726/netflix-finally-comes-to-ubunt...
    - shrikant 13y ago
      To add a little more info to that article ("The app basically packages WINE and Netflix into a simple little desktop app"), the package basically shows you the Netflix site in a Firefox frame with the silverlight plugin installed.

0xEA 13y ago

This argument is akin to saying "isn't it beautiful that I can go from Lion to Mountain Lion within the same day". You aren't changing much, just who packaged the software together.

surrealize 13y ago
The point is that in the linux world you're choosing between competing distributors. In your example, they're both from Apple. In the linux world you get a combination of 1. low switching costs between competitors (because, as you point out, most of the software is the same), and 2. competition between distributors. With Microsoft and Apple, if you want to choose between competitors, the cost of switching between them is much higher.