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Ubuntu is not going the direction I want for "my Linux. 1. Mir is a huge mistake (My opinion) 2. Unity (Well I am tiled window manager (i3) guy now so all DEs)

by baldfat 13y ago

Ubuntu is not going the direction I want for "my Linux. 1. Mir is a huge mistake (My opinion) 2. Unity (Well I am tiled window manager (i3) guy now so all DEs) I really don't like the flow of OS X and it is starting to really look more like OS X. DEFAULT an easily be changed. 3. Lack of community between the Linux ecosystem. Millions is spent on Ubuntu but seems like little makes it upstream. 4. Software Center. They need to just take OpenSUSE's one-click model and get rid of their current model of App Store and the horrible app model. (My model) 5. Their Developer SDK to "Write once, run everywhere." If I had a nickel for every time that was promised (Java looking at you) Once again OpenSUSE Build Service is the most underused Linux tool in the last decade https://build.opensuse.org/ https://build.opensuse.org/ Build it there and also build packages for other Distros also. Now after my list I have Ubuntu running my home server right now and well it is solid. I use OpenSUSE at work and Arch Linux on my tiny laptop and like those experiences more. People need to look at OpenSUSE again!

0x006A 13y ago
can you use obs to build packages straight from git? Tarball based build workflows seam rather outdated to me.
- halfasleep 13y ago
  Yeah, you can. The functionality is called "services". I'm not sure how auto-versioning would work with git though. I have packages building from SVN, and OBS updates the spec file automagically to set the version to the SVN revision.
  - tacticus 13y ago
    Git describe is what you want. it will take the nearest tag name and use that as the version with the number of commits from that tag as the release value.
frank_boyd 13y ago
> People need to look at OpenSUSE again! Isn't it really beautiful that we actually can do this, now? We can switch platforms within the same day - without real hassle or pain. I mean tell a Windows or Apple user that they need to look at something else, and guess what their answer will be...
- Demiurge 13y ago
  My guess is "why? everything is working".
  - jonathansizz 13y ago
    Or "Why? I've got used to working around all the things that aren't working".
    - Demiurge 13y ago
      Like what?
      - frank_boyd 13y ago
        I'd reply to that: Various types of freedom and a higher degree of respect for your privacy (I know, it's not a cure-all solution, but the next step that needs to be taken by society).
        Demiurge 13y ago
        Are these things something manufacturers put in the specifications for the computers the sell? Are these things something customers shopping for a computer look for?
        Demiurge 13y ago
        lol it's funny I'm getting downmoded as if I am responsible for the answers to these questions.
rlpb 13y ago
All of your complaints seem to be about the defaults. That's fine, but I don't see that it makes sense to switch distribution because you don't like the defaults, given that all the other options are available inside Debian and/or Ubuntu as well. There's Xubuntu, Lubuntu, Ubuntu GNOME, Kubuntu etc. all of which have different desktop environment defaults, enthusiastic developers who look after it. Some intend to switch to Mir, and some do not. Switching distribution because you don't like the main Ubuntu flavour's defaults is just fragmentation when there's no need for it. There may be plenty of valid reasons, but not liking the defaults is not one of them. > Millions is spent on Ubuntu but seems like little makes it upstream. I don't think you appreciate how much work does go upstream. Thousands of patches go upstream (eg. http://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu_usertag.cgi; http://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu_usertag.cgi; and that's just stuff that went directly Debian and was tagged as such). Driver work for new hardware enablements go to the upstream kernel so that Ubuntu developers don't have to maintain it. And Canonical is upstream for a number of projects (eg. they pioneered faster boot speeds with upstart, which went into RHEL). You just don't see this in action because the community works, and work done in one distribution ends up in all the others. So you don't realise how much of the other distribution you're using involves work originally done in Ubuntu.
- baldfat 13y ago
  ripb "All of your complaints seem to be about the defaults." Only one of five is a default issue and I even declared it a default issue and how I go around defaults. 1. Mir is a huge mistake (My opinion) 2. Unity (Well I am tiled window manager (i3) guy now so all DEs) I really don't like the flow of OS X and it is starting to really look more like OS X. DEFAULT an easily be changed. 3. Lack of community between the Linux ecosystem. Millions is spent on Ubuntu but seems like little makes it upstream. 4. Software Center. They need to just take OpenSUSE's one-click model and get rid of their current model of App Store and the horrible app model. (My model) 5. Their Developer SDK to "Write once, run everywhere." If I had a nickel for every time that was promised (Java looking at you) Once again OpenSUSE Build Service is the most underused Linux tool in the last decade
  - rlpb 13y ago
peatmoss 13y ago
People always mention Unity as a non-selling point of Ubuntu, but I have to say I quite like it. Granted, my background is strange--last time I personally used something other than OS X for daily use was WindowMaker on NetBSD ~2003. I've used various unixen for servers / clusters, and I've supported others using Ubuntu workstations for scientific work since I used a FOSS desktop myself, but even that was 4 years ago now. Maybe I qualify a a crotchety neophyte? The set of applications I now use has changed quite a lot recently, and now I find myself reevaluating Ubuntu. And while I gather people didn't like the change over to Unity, I'm appreciating the thoughtful UI choices and find it to be a selling point (it's been a long time since I've needed to do anything like tweak an .fvwmrc file!) Whether or not Canonical can execute on it, I also like the direction they're going with the convergence stuff in Unity. My phone actually is approaching the level of power that I need in a desktop computer. The ability to dock it and still have Emacs seems pretty powerful. MS and Apple will get there in some form, but I suspect their visions of convergence will be somewhat more restrictive in terms of what I can do. Whether or not they need Mir for that vision, I've no idea. However, I remember people talking about X11 replacements clear back in the long ago, and being disappointed for years. Canonical seems pretty close to delivering something that they say will enable them to do something that I think will be cool. And, I believe they've said it will be open source. Thus, I really don't get what all the flap about Mir is. If someone wants to prove the viability / superiority of Wayland by building the Ubuntu convergence phone ahead of canonical, more power to them.
username42 13y ago
I share your hate of unity, that is why I have switched to ubuntu-gnome. ubuntu-gnome is an official variant of ubuntu (not perfect, but reasonably easy to customized). As a result, it is already available here: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-gnome/releases/13.10/release/ http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-gnome/releases/13.10/releas...
puller 13y ago
So what? These aren't criticisms of today's release at all. Mir isn't even used in 13.10. I don't think there are any distributions which ship with i3 so you would have to install i3 in any case, that isn't a fault of Ubuntu's and since you are not using it anyway, who cares if it looks like OS X to you? Ubuntu's work is open source, the code is there under a liberal license, what do you even want? If you don't like software center, use apt-get or synaptic. Their "App Store" isn't for you but I am glad they have one to encourage a market for Linux software. If you don't like it, don't use it, it's not harming you. I don't know what developer SDKs have to do with anything. This isn't Android, it's normal Linux. Write a Linux app and it runs on Ubuntu. Why would I look at OpenSUSE if I do not specifically want an RPM-based distribution oriented toward KDE? If those are your preferences then why are you even complaining about Ubuntu?
- baldfat 13y ago
  So what? These aren't criticisms of today's release at all. Mir isn't even used in 13.10 BUT they are spending resources on Mir WHEN they could have just gone with Wayland.
  - rlpb 13y ago
    > BUT they are spending resources on Mir WHEN they could have just gone with Wayland. They can spend resources on what they like. This isn't a zero sum game. This doesn't take other Free software away from you. This doesn't remove other Free software from Ubuntu's repositories. > they could have just gone with Wayland. I don't pretend to understand the technical details. But they seem to be the only ones pushing a full traditional distribution onto a phone. They've made it happen. This is Free software. You go use Wayland on your phone that you don't have and enjoy whatever full traditional Linux distribution that doesn't exist there, and I'll use Mir on the phone I can have today and enjoy a standard Linux distribution on it.
Mikeb85 13y ago
> People need to look at OpenSUSE again! Agree. Not because I necessary dislike Ubuntu, but because openSUSE is awesome. It's insanely flexible (hence the chameleon mascot), fast, YaST is great, one-click installs are great for newbies, openSUSE build service is great, and installing software/new repositories is very easy. Zypper also beats yum and apt-get...
oelmekki 13y ago
I like what they do with their distro. I won't use it on desktop (I'm on gentoo for more than a decade and am very happy with it), but I use it on laptop and tried its mobile version on my nexus7 (ubuntu touch, but that's basically 13.10). It's only when I played with it on tablet that I understood what unity is about. You compare it to macosx, and I agree, here : it's some kind of responsive interface, allowing to have the same feeling on a desktop, a laptop and a mobile. That's certainly not our usual linux environment, but I'm glad they're trying to innovate, here. I can't wait to see what will come out of that when it's finished, because even the browser was quite unusable when I tried ubuntu touch (it keeps on clicking 25/50px above were I was tapping). The qt5 development environment looks promising to write apps, too. Not only that will be nice to write mobile apps, but even to write desktop small apps and widgets. Each time I tried to write some kde javascript plasma widget, it was painful by lack of documentation and lack of debug features. Ubuntu sdk looks great, so far (just sad it's just for ubuntu).

by baldfat 13y ago

0x006A 13y ago

can you use obs to build packages straight from git? Tarball based build workflows seam rather outdated to me.

halfasleep 13y ago
Yeah, you can. The functionality is called "services". I'm not sure how auto-versioning would work with git though. I have packages building from SVN, and OBS updates the spec file automagically to set the version to the SVN revision.
- tacticus 13y ago
  Git describe is what you want. it will take the nearest tag name and use that as the version with the number of commits from that tag as the release value.

frank_boyd 13y ago

> People need to look at OpenSUSE again! Isn't it really beautiful that we actually can do this, now? We can switch platforms within the same day - without real hassle or pain. I mean tell a Windows or Apple user that they need to look at something else, and guess what their answer will be...

Demiurge 13y ago
My guess is "why? everything is working".
- jonathansizz 13y ago
  Or "Why? I've got used to working around all the things that aren't working".
  - Demiurge 13y ago
    Like what?
    - frank_boyd 13y ago
      I'd reply to that: Various types of freedom and a higher degree of respect for your privacy (I know, it's not a cure-all solution, but the next step that needs to be taken by society).
      - Demiurge 13y ago
        Are these things something manufacturers put in the specifications for the computers the sell? Are these things something customers shopping for a computer look for?
        Demiurge 13y ago
        lol it's funny I'm getting downmoded as if I am responsible for the answers to these questions.

rlpb 13y ago

All of your complaints seem to be about the defaults. That's fine, but I don't see that it makes sense to switch distribution because you don't like the defaults, given that all the other options are available inside Debian and/or Ubuntu as well. There's Xubuntu, Lubuntu, Ubuntu GNOME, Kubuntu etc. all of which have different desktop environment defaults, enthusiastic developers who look after it. Some intend to switch to Mir, and some do not. Switching distribution because you don't like the main Ubuntu flavour's defaults is just fragmentation when there's no need for it. There may be plenty of valid reasons, but not liking the defaults is not one of them. > Millions is spent on Ubuntu but seems like little makes it upstream. I don't think you appreciate how much work does go upstream. Thousands of patches go upstream (eg. http://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu_usertag.cgi; http://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu_usertag.cgi; and that's just stuff that went directly Debian and was tagged as such). Driver work for new hardware enablements go to the upstream kernel so that Ubuntu developers don't have to maintain it. And Canonical is upstream for a number of projects (eg. they pioneered faster boot speeds with upstart, which went into RHEL). You just don't see this in action because the community works, and work done in one distribution ends up in all the others. So you don't realise how much of the other distribution you're using involves work originally done in Ubuntu.

baldfat 13y ago
ripb "All of your complaints seem to be about the defaults." Only one of five is a default issue and I even declared it a default issue and how I go around defaults. 1. Mir is a huge mistake (My opinion) 2. Unity (Well I am tiled window manager (i3) guy now so all DEs) I really don't like the flow of OS X and it is starting to really look more like OS X. DEFAULT an easily be changed. 3. Lack of community between the Linux ecosystem. Millions is spent on Ubuntu but seems like little makes it upstream. 4. Software Center. They need to just take OpenSUSE's one-click model and get rid of their current model of App Store and the horrible app model. (My model) 5. Their Developer SDK to "Write once, run everywhere." If I had a nickel for every time that was promised (Java looking at you) Once again OpenSUSE Build Service is the most underused Linux tool in the last decade
- rlpb 13y ago

peatmoss 13y ago

People always mention Unity as a non-selling point of Ubuntu, but I have to say I quite like it. Granted, my background is strange--last time I personally used something other than OS X for daily use was WindowMaker on NetBSD ~2003. I've used various unixen for servers / clusters, and I've supported others using Ubuntu workstations for scientific work since I used a FOSS desktop myself, but even that was 4 years ago now. Maybe I qualify a a crotchety neophyte? The set of applications I now use has changed quite a lot recently, and now I find myself reevaluating Ubuntu. And while I gather people didn't like the change over to Unity, I'm appreciating the thoughtful UI choices and find it to be a selling point (it's been a long time since I've needed to do anything like tweak an .fvwmrc file!) Whether or not Canonical can execute on it, I also like the direction they're going with the convergence stuff in Unity. My phone actually is approaching the level of power that I need in a desktop computer. The ability to dock it and still have Emacs seems pretty powerful. MS and Apple will get there in some form, but I suspect their visions of convergence will be somewhat more restrictive in terms of what I can do. Whether or not they need Mir for that vision, I've no idea. However, I remember people talking about X11 replacements clear back in the long ago, and being disappointed for years. Canonical seems pretty close to delivering something that they say will enable them to do something that I think will be cool. And, I believe they've said it will be open source. Thus, I really don't get what all the flap about Mir is. If someone wants to prove the viability / superiority of Wayland by building the Ubuntu convergence phone ahead of canonical, more power to them.

username42 13y ago

I share your hate of unity, that is why I have switched to ubuntu-gnome. ubuntu-gnome is an official variant of ubuntu (not perfect, but reasonably easy to customized). As a result, it is already available here: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-gnome/releases/13.10/release/ http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-gnome/releases/13.10/releas...

puller 13y ago

So what? These aren't criticisms of today's release at all. Mir isn't even used in 13.10. I don't think there are any distributions which ship with i3 so you would have to install i3 in any case, that isn't a fault of Ubuntu's and since you are not using it anyway, who cares if it looks like OS X to you? Ubuntu's work is open source, the code is there under a liberal license, what do you even want? If you don't like software center, use apt-get or synaptic. Their "App Store" isn't for you but I am glad they have one to encourage a market for Linux software. If you don't like it, don't use it, it's not harming you. I don't know what developer SDKs have to do with anything. This isn't Android, it's normal Linux. Write a Linux app and it runs on Ubuntu. Why would I look at OpenSUSE if I do not specifically want an RPM-based distribution oriented toward KDE? If those are your preferences then why are you even complaining about Ubuntu?

baldfat 13y ago
So what? These aren't criticisms of today's release at all. Mir isn't even used in 13.10 BUT they are spending resources on Mir WHEN they could have just gone with Wayland.
- rlpb 13y ago
  > BUT they are spending resources on Mir WHEN they could have just gone with Wayland. They can spend resources on what they like. This isn't a zero sum game. This doesn't take other Free software away from you. This doesn't remove other Free software from Ubuntu's repositories. > they could have just gone with Wayland. I don't pretend to understand the technical details. But they seem to be the only ones pushing a full traditional distribution onto a phone. They've made it happen. This is Free software. You go use Wayland on your phone that you don't have and enjoy whatever full traditional Linux distribution that doesn't exist there, and I'll use Mir on the phone I can have today and enjoy a standard Linux distribution on it.

Mikeb85 13y ago

> People need to look at OpenSUSE again! Agree. Not because I necessary dislike Ubuntu, but because openSUSE is awesome. It's insanely flexible (hence the chameleon mascot), fast, YaST is great, one-click installs are great for newbies, openSUSE build service is great, and installing software/new repositories is very easy. Zypper also beats yum and apt-get...

oelmekki 13y ago

I like what they do with their distro. I won't use it on desktop (I'm on gentoo for more than a decade and am very happy with it), but I use it on laptop and tried its mobile version on my nexus7 (ubuntu touch, but that's basically 13.10). It's only when I played with it on tablet that I understood what unity is about. You compare it to macosx, and I agree, here : it's some kind of responsive interface, allowing to have the same feeling on a desktop, a laptop and a mobile. That's certainly not our usual linux environment, but I'm glad they're trying to innovate, here. I can't wait to see what will come out of that when it's finished, because even the browser was quite unusable when I tried ubuntu touch (it keeps on clicking 25/50px above were I was tapping). The qt5 development environment looks promising to write apps, too. Not only that will be nice to write mobile apps, but even to write desktop small apps and widgets. Each time I tried to write some kde javascript plasma widget, it was painful by lack of documentation and lack of debug features. Ubuntu sdk looks great, so far (just sad it's just for ubuntu).