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Adi Shamir Prevented from Attending Crypto and Cryptology Conferences
- frank_boyd 13y agoWhy not organize important events such as this one elsewhere, some place more easily accessible for everyone?
- cantrevealname 13y agoAdi Shamir wrote that the president of his institute says: "It is clear that scientists have been singled out, since I hear that other ‘simple citizen’, do get their visa in a short time." Scientists get more scrutiny? What in the world is going on there?
- mhlakhani 13y agoFrom the visa guidelines of the embassy where I applied for my visa [1]: The visa applications of applicants involved in technical or scientific fields may require additional administrative processing. Therefore, applicants who believe they may be affected by this requirement should apply as early as possible. [1] http://karachi.usconsulate.gov/technology_visas.html http://karachi.usconsulate.gov/technology_visas.html
- danielweber 13y agoRight, scientific and technical people will get extra scrutiny. Under the US's threat model -- moral or not -- it is not the janitors and artists you worry about, it's the people visiting our nuclear, biological, and high-technology facilities. The fact that this has very bad side effects on technological progress is important, but it's not like the government gives smart people scrutiny because it hates smart people. This behavior is brutally rational if you just look at their primary mission.
- adekok 13y agoYes. 18 year-old fashion models or recording artists are fast-tracked with a cultural visa. I guess it shows what the priorities are. Science? Dangerous! Skinny girls with weird clothing? Come on in!
- easytiger 13y agoIronically one of the easiest visas to get is if you are an artist.
- desigooner 13y agoIt occurs more often than people realise. My friend was in the US before he had to go out and get his H1B extended. He was stuck outside the country for about 5 months for "additional scrutiny". He got his undergrad, masters and Ph.D. in the US and worked in the area of chemical engineering + spent working 6 months in middle east on water filtration projects.
- johnchristopher 13y agoDidn't that make the headlines some months ago ? I remember something about a teacher writing on behalf of his student. "We give people top education and then prevent them from working in the US and this harms us".
- arjunnarayan 13y agoHere's the letter the poster above was talking about: http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~ccb/publications/letter-to-the-president.pdf http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~ccb/publications/letter-to-the-presid...
- Osmium 13y agoHappens all the time. A colleague of mine has issues because she happened to have worked in a lab previously whose building also happened to house a lab that did nuclear research (even though she never did any herself). Scientists also move around a lot, so it doesn't help if you've worked in/visited/just been to a conference in certain countries that might arouse suspicion... It's a bit of a nightmare actually.
- weland 13y agoIt's fairly common, unfortunately.
- rrrrtttt 13y agoScientists specifically are targeted for extra scrutiny. In my visa interview I was asked if my research is in cryptography and waved through when I said it isn't.
- JonnieCache 13y agoReally? Could you elaborate on this?
- rrrrtttt 13y agoNot much to elaborate. You're told to bring a stack of documents if you have a scientific or technical background, such as CV, a list of publications, an invitation letter from your US host, a letter from your university etc. If the embassy official isn't satisfied, you are asked to send more documents to a state.gov email address. On one occasion they wanted more information about my work as a programmer before I started my PhD. When they asked me for more documents I was tempted to joke that it doesn't matter what address I use, the email will reach the required destination anyway.
- adnam 13y agoIt sounds like they're doing more than simply determining ones suitability for entry.
- grecy 13y ago> It sounds like they're doing more than simply determining ones suitability for entry. Did you honestly think that's all they are doing? They can do anything they want, for as long as they want.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- cowsandmilk 13y agowhen I was a grad student, we regularly removed foreign students from our lab web site when they were renewing their visas due to the belief that visas were approved more quickly the less the government could learn by googling your name. That is, if they can quickly learn anything about your research, those are all potential red flags. If a quick google search turns up nothing, you'll just be rubber stamped through.
- p4bl0 13y agoI thought that was a known fact. I often hear about people who can't attend security-related conferences because of visa problems. Last year at the CRYPTO/CHES/FDTC/PROOFS week in Santa Barbara at least three researchers (from India IIRC) couldn't make it because of visa problems, while they had accepted papers at one of the conference! In many lab outside of the US, we are told not to be to verbose about the type of conferences we are going to attend in the US. Words such as "security", "cryptography", "side-channel attacks", "fault injection attacks", etc. must be banned from the application. Instead we just say that we are going to a "computer science conference" or "information processing conference" for instance.
- rmc 13y agoIt's all those dangerous liberal intelligesia.
- betterunix 13y agoOne of the grad students I know was told he was not allowed to renew his student visa unless he stopped working on computer security. He had to switch advisers and the school had to swear that he would not be allowed to continue his previous work.
- z999 13y agoI know of another Israeli security researcher that had big trojble getting an american visa for travel, he had to cancel his trip because getting the visa took 5 months IIRC.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- anon1385 13y agoThis was also submitted yesterday but didn't get much interest for some reason: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6560355 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6560355 Similar recent story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6499744 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6499744 'US scientists boycott Nasa conference over China ban'
- chmars 13y agoIt was actually submitted at least twice yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6562394 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6562394 On HN, gaining interest depends on many factors. Great to see the story finally in the pole position! :)
- cantrevealname 13y agoHow much you can relate to the title is very important -- even on HN. Look at the 3 submission titles on HN: (1) Cryptographer Adi Shamir Prevented from Attending NSA History Conference (2) How The Government Blocked An Expert From Attending Its Own Cryptology Symposium (3) Adi Shamir--the "S" in RSA encryption--Prevented from Attending US Crypto Talks Number 3 (this submission) is getting the exposure the story deserves, and the reason (I think) is that everyone on HN knows what RSA is, and would have respect for its inventors.
- aviraldg 13y agoI find it difficult to believe that there are people who know about RSA, but not about Adi Shamir.
- Roritharr 13y agoHere. Didn't know about about him but have used RSA quite often.
- cantrevealname 13y agoDo you recognize the names Robert McCool and Guido van Rossum? You might not know the names but they invented some important technologies that HN people use and respect (the original Apache server and the Python programming language, respectively). It would be hard to relate to a story that said "Robert McCool denied US visa" or "Guido van Rossum endured US visa hassles".
- raverbashing 13y agoCan anyone explain why it involved a J1 visa? I thought a B-1 sufficed for attendance (and even non-compensated presentations)
- piqufoh 13y agoIf you're already on a J1 you can only apply to have it renewed, and if you don't you get a two-year visa ban.
- Yuioup 13y agoDoes this have anything to do with the recent shutdown?
- rb2k_ 13y agoIt's not that they didn't give him a J1 visa, it's just that they took way too long to process it. It sucks, but I wouldn't attribute to malice what I could attribute to inefficiency :)
- chmars 13y agoIt should not take four months and pulling a lot of strings to get a visa, in particular if you have been to the US for many times, have invitations from renowned institutions etc. I am not a scientist and I can usually enter the US on the visa waiver program but I always wonder if the latest visit was also the last, you never know. And while you get used to the usual 1- or 2-hour wait at immigration, you never know if you get selected for a secondary check or worse. As much as I like the US and being in the US, entering the US is always very unpleasant.
- eli 13y agoNothing about the US Visa process works the way it should work.
- clueless123 13y agoI used to think the same way (malice vs incompetence), but lately there has been to much malice going on.. I am sad to admit that I am starting to have my doubts about it.
- piqufoh 13y ago> Indeed, public-key cryptography might not even be with us today if Adi had not been involved with Ron Rivest and Leonard Adleman so long ago. There you go, those pesky scientists making the surveillance industry's job that little bit harder.
- einhverfr 13y agoThat is pretty clearly what it is about....
- lvryc 13y agoI quite like the 'apology' he received from the conference organizers: > In July 2013 I told the NSA-affiliated conference organizers that I was having some problems in getting my visa, and gently asked whether they could do something about it. Always eager to help, the NSA people leaped into action, and immediately sent me a short email written with a lot of tact: > “The trouble you are having is regrettable… Sorry you won’t be able to come to our conference. We have submitted our program and did not include you on it.”
- ra 13y agoI think if the US must continue to have such draconian and onerous entry requirements they should offer a fast track or simplified program for persons of note to attend a specific event in their field. To not do so simply hinders the progress of human knowledge, or at least, it hinders the United States.
- blisterpeanuts 13y agoUnfortunately this would violate some "fairness" or "political correctness" rule. It's like patting down some grandma/3-year-old girl at the airport, just to show we're not "prejudiced".
- cantrevealname 13y ago> fast track or simplified program for persons of note There actually is a visa for Outstanding persons called O-1A: individuals with an extraordinary ability in the sciences, education, business, or athletics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_visa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_visa). I don't know if it's any faster to get it.
- daurnimator 13y agoIt takes even longer; the documentation required is very strict, and due to the wide range of applicants, hard+subjective to judge.
- lrem 13y ago
- gngeal 13y agoI hope this will spur research and development in the area of telepresence.
- informatimago 13y agoOr just spur research outside of the USA, this is not the center of the world.
- buro9 13y agoMy visa takes a long while. Not quite as long as it took Adi Shamir, but long. On average it takes about 14 weeks to get a visa, but on occasion it has taken many many months. I've done the calculations, the worst-case scenario for the full process is 32 weeks. It's never actually taken that long, but it's not been far off. I remember having to explain to Microsoft that they needed to write a sponsor/supporting letter (for the US embassy) more than half a year in advance of any potential visit to Redmond that I'd be working at. As this was for DAC (Developer Advisory Council) meetings that Microsoft only scheduled a month in advance they found themselves in a dilemma over this. Thankfully they agreed, and their legal department would author letters that a meeting would likely occur requiring my attendance, but it was always a slog of a process. For those wondering, I was shortly married to a US citizen and I speculate that this triggers some flag or signal that makes them think I want to stay there (I don't). I also have an interesting past, having been homeless for a while. Who knows though, the system doesn't supply answers. It's a black box process. It's a nightmare process that doesn't end when you have a visa. On arrival I experience the joys of "secondary", and being sat in a waiting room for many hours before a 10-second interview in which they let me go my way. Every part of the experience is a miserable one, always with the threat of an axe over the visit. The vast majority of the time I have been invited, or had opportunities to visit, I just do not choose to visit the USA.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- sireat 13y agoWhat has been your the worst experience in the "secondary". I had the dubious privilege of being sent to secondary upon arrival in Houston earlier this year. The experience reminded me of old Soviet Union or something out of Kafka. My wait was not very long maybe 30 minutes and after that I was sent on my way without any interview or anything, but those were some extremely long minutes. I first made the mistake of sitting down in the "comfy" chair, which apparently was reserved for those poor souls who have to remain in secondary overnight or longer. Then I noticed a sign No Electronic Devices Allowed, which meant no tablet, no e-reader no nothing. So better bring a book ("Consolation of Philosophy" perhaps?). There were no progress or status updates or anything. I saw some misplaced NATO soldiers sent on their way quickly, while an elderly Russian emigree couple was berated for leaving US to travel. Then there were people in the comfy chairs who had resigned to their fate and simply were sleeping or pretending to. Again, this doesn't sound that bad, but the problem was that there was absolutely no indication on how long this process could take. No queue numbers no nothing. I am supposed to go to US again soon, but I am extremely wary now. What is the worst experience in the secondary that you've experienced?
- Sidnicious 13y agoWhy not attend by telepresence? Let him present by video and hook him up with a Double or similar internet-controllable robot to talk to people around the conference. Or go full-on Bluth and pair up with an American proxy wearing a headset. This sucks, sure, but there's always another way.
- blisterpeanuts 13y agoI've been thinking you could hook up a cam/mic to one of those Roomba vacuum 'bots and then you could cruise around the conference and network with your colleagues just as though you were there. I understand those things have wifi already, so.... The coolest part would be bumping into other Roombas that represent colleagues from elsewhere (you'd need a way to distinguish from an ordinary, autonomous Roomba). There could even be a Roomba room just for them!
- askew 13y agoAnd on the plus side, to escape any awkward conversations you can simply start vacuuming!
- CamperBob2 13y agoSomeone did this a while back -- it made HN, but I don't remember who was behind it. It had a camera and an LCD display and could travel between offices and conference rooms in an office building several states away, attending meetings and generally hanging out with coworkers.
- dylangs1030 13y agoI think you mean this: http://www.doublerobotics.com/ http://www.doublerobotics.com/
- bemol 13y agoIf this would become common (or any "other way"), it could very well be made illegal shortly after and requires some sort of visa. The issue is not technical, it's political.
- bhitov 13y agoFor those of you in the Cambridge area, he will instead be giving a talk at MIT tomorrow. 'DISSECTION: A NEW PARADIGM FOR SOLVING BICOMPOSITE SEARCH PROBLEMS' https://calendar.csail.mit.edu/events/116296 https://calendar.csail.mit.edu/events/116296
- rburhum 13y agoAs somebody that has held six different US immigration statuses during a span of a couple of decades, I can almost assure you there is no malice behind this and just pure bureaucratic incompetence. I once had a paper that was supposed to arrive in three months take three years. What I learned is that going to the USCIS office after something is due and checking the status will make a difference since, for example, you can spot (common) routing errors with applications.
- hrasyid 13y agoNobody said there's malice.
- mrgoldenbrown 13y agoI disagree. The article itself implies possible malice. It mentions "personal vendetta" (with no supporting evidence or even speculation as to why) as a potential cause of the delay. I would consider a personal vendetta to be malicious.
- informatimago 13y agoWhat is obvious is that "Adi Shamir" is a name of someone living in a country dominated by Islam, and further that person is known to work in cryptography, so he is obviously a terrorist trying to send secret orders to other terrorists. In any case, he's a PITA for the NSA and other good guys like that. What they should have done, is to give him a visa, and redirect his flight direct to Guantanamo for further interrogation.</sarcasm level=big> A tad more seriously: it's because of all those scientists of all the ages, that they have this situation where mere peasants can travel all around the globe, and make bombs or pilot planes into buildings. In the good old time, if a peasant tried to escape, he was eaten by the wolfs in the hoods, or killed by the highwaymen, so they stayed put, and the most they could try to do was to bump the armor of the lord with their wooden forks. So it seems only natural to try to restrict them like that (perhaps it's a little too late).
- UnoriginalGuy 13y agoTwo things, first off attributes are rarely placed on closing tags, and secondly you forgot to enclose the value in quotes as in level="big"
- sluukkonen 13y agoQuoting attributes is optional in HTML (though recommended).
- UnoriginalGuy 13y agoOnly in old depreciated versions or with the quirks mode enabled.
- jessaustin 13y agohttp://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#unquoted http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/...
- JanezStupar 13y agoI have been to the USA in the past. I would like to see more than I have seen and I would also like to participate in the wonderful US economy. However upon the last visit I really took offence with the security theatre (that was in 2008 mind you and I am from a visa waiver country). Another factor is that USA chooses to not grant me a visa under which I start a business in the US under reasonable terms i.e. without constant fear of getting caught and deported and being put on lists. It became a matter of pride. Now I will continue to avoid USA on principle.
- teh_klev 13y agoI flew to New Zealand on Air NZ back in 2005. Unfortunately there's a stop off in LA to refuel and change crew. Everyone is taken off the plane and corralled into a holding area with not enough seats and horribly stained walls. There is no humour from the immigration officials who escort you through a myriad of corridors to this zone. Then you're marched out in batches and electronically finger printed/eyeball scanned by more humourless uniformed officials before being deposited back in the holding area to await your onward journey. It was a demeaning experience and I wasn't even visiting the US. Technically I haven't entered the US, how do they get away with that? This contrasted heavily to my previous arrival on US soil (Boston in 2002) which was pretty straight forward - visa waiver (I'm a UK citizen) thing during final approach on plane and traditional show your passport procedure at immigration and off you go. Upon arrival in Auckland the only grilling we got was from a bunch of cheerful bio-security folks, with a cute sniffer dog, who wanted to make sure we didn't have any fresh food in our bags and that our footwear wasn't caked in dirt/earth (which could potentially harbour unwanted seeds or spores). After my 2005 experience I decided that won't be visiting the US again, I'll stick to travelling in the EU.
- Schwolop 13y agoI love New Zealand's quarantine people. Every time I visit they clean my shoes for me!
- zhuzhuor 13y agoAFAIK, USA has been a second choice for crypto-related conferences for many years. If you ever attended one such conference, you will notice there will always some speakers/presenters couldn't attend due to visa issues. I guess many US people aren't even aware of this, but visa problem has been a huge pain for non US citizens. You can ask about this if you have any friends who are international students or H1B workers.
- bowlofpetunias 13y agoI'm surprised nobody is offended by the fact that an Israeli needs a visa for the US in the first place.
- nir 13y agoI'm Israeli, not sure why this should be offensive :) AFAIK most foreigners need a visa, except for EU and few other nations.
- gambiting 13y agoAnd even within the EU Polish citizens still need visas, it's a massive pain. It's basically because after the fall of communism a lot of Polish people went to US with travel visas and stayed, so when the visa requirement was dropped for all EU countries, Poland was explicitly excluded from that arrangement. So now if I wanted to go to US I would need to apply at an embassy first.
- Kliment 13y agoMany EU countries are excluded from the VWP, not just Poland.
- grecy 13y agoActually, there are 37 countries on the VWP. Quite a few outside the EU. http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html
- scott_s 13y agoA bill was recently introduced to add Israel to this program, Visa Waiver for Israel Act. The difficulty seems to be that the language of the law is not the same for Israel as for other countries. There may be potential for different treatment of US citizens: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/16/critics-fear-visa-waiver-for-israel-glosses-over-discrimination-against-americans.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/16/critics-fea...
- kartikkumar 13y agoWhy did he apply for a J-1 visa? I've been on a J-1 a couple of times for research stints in the US, but my understanding is that for conferences, you can also make use of the B-1 visa [1], as stated on the State department's website. The B-1 is generally processed much more quickly, with the J-1 requiring a lot more documentation. [1] http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_2665.html#1 http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_2665.html#...
- mortdeus 13y agoThere needs to be legislation that allows foreign scientist's visas to be rushed to the front of the line when they have a science convention. I mean just imagine if doctor A had information to present that would help doctor B find a cure for HIV or something just important. Are we really making it that difficult for the smartest people in the world to convene and discuss all the new smart stuff they know with the other smartest people in the world?
- tedunangst 13y agoNot only scientists and doctors, but programmers too. Just imagine if somebody invented a new rails plugin that could be used to help build the next wikileaks or something but they weren't able to demonstrate it at a meetup.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]