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I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor, one of the schools that this article is about. > I also think good programming is a journey, not something that can be consume

I'm a cofounder at Hack Reactor, one of the schools that this article is about. > I also think good programming is a journey, not something that can be consumed and digested in a compacted 12-week course. I am in emphatic agreement -- we tell our students that the point of our school is to get to a spot where you can get paid to learn the rest, and we hold classes for alums to encourage ongoing education. > Personally I'm against charging to teach others how to code. Sounds like a fine personal philosophy. Our students faced a decision of self-instruction vs Hack Reactor, and they choose to pay the instructors at my school (who took pay cuts when we hired them away from Twitter, Adobe, Google, etc but are nonetheless pretty pricey). I summarized my perception of why in this quora post: http://www.quora.com/Programming-Bootcamps/Self-study-vs-Boot-camp-Starting-from-zero-can-self-study-achieve-the-same-goal-become-dev-at-a-decent-west-coast-company-as-attending-a-boot-camp http://www.quora.com/Programming-Bootcamps/Self-study-vs-Boo... > I'd like to hear back from bootcamp graduates on their experiences both in the program and in the real world. http://www.quora.com/Reviews-of-Hack-Reactor http://www.quora.com/Reviews-of-Hack-Reactor http://www.yelp.com/biz/hack-reactor-san-francisco http://www.yelp.com/biz/hack-reactor-san-francisco > ...good enough so that you're able to build a shitty web app, and then they hopefully place you in a job needing a code monkey... I'm not a fan of the tone of this article, but it's also aggravating that the content is incorrect. Student projects include 3d space shooters (http://satellite-game.com/ http://satellite-game.com/), bittorrent clients (https://github.com/rtjoseph11/nTorrent https://github.com/rtjoseph11/nTorrent), music visualizers (http://arcanegl.jit.su/ http://arcanegl.jit.su/), a reddit-focused machine learning / dataviz mashup (http://techcrunch.com/2013/07/17/reddit-insight-interview-hack-reactor/ http://techcrunch.com/2013/07/17/reddit-insight-interview-ha...), distributed computing platforms (http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/06/43651/ http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/06/43651/), etc.

petea 13y ago
These Yelp reviews mean very little to be honest. What kind of an idiot would write a bad review when 1. Writing bad review of the code training you got basically admits to others that your skills as a programmer is poor. 2. You risk souring interpersonal relationship you might have built going to the program. When you say the code training you got at X is bad, you are actually telling potential employers that people who got training from X are also bad. Who writes in their grad school application that they got trained in Kaplan? --- edited point 2
- shawndrost 13y ago
  http://www.yelp.com/biz/kaplan-test-prep-and-admissions-san-francisco http://www.yelp.com/biz/kaplan-test-prep-and-admissions-san-... Edit: As pointed out below, this isn't a comparable institution. However, I think we can empirically test the question "Will students offer bad yelp reviews to schools that are their primary credential?" The answer seems to be yes: http://www.yelp.com/biz/bay-area-medical-academy-san-francisco http://www.yelp.com/biz/bay-area-medical-academy-san-francis... http://www.yelp.com/biz/los-angeles-film-school-los-angeles http://www.yelp.com/biz/los-angeles-film-school-los-angeles http://www.yelp.com/biz/southern-california-health-institute-north-hollywood http://www.yelp.com/biz/southern-california-health-institute...
  - jaredsohn 13y ago
    I don't think Kaplan is relevant from a credentials or networking standpoint. (My understanding is that it should help you get into a school based on how your score improves on a test rather than offering direct social signaling.)
  - markkanof 13y ago
    That's a bad example. When trying to get a job an interviewer could possibly see a bad review that a student left of your school and assume that means the student may not have the skills necessary for the job. Also, presumably at your school as students and instructors are interacting personal relationships are being developed (ie. networking) which could be beneficial in finding a job. If the student then gives a bad review of the school it could burn the bridges that they built while in the class. On the other hand, when someone is grading a standardized test, they grade based on how you answered the test questions. They don't do an internet search to see what kind of preparation you had for the test. It's different than a job interview because a test is judging what skills and knowledge you are demonstrating at that point in time, whereas a job interview is judging both where you are at now and what you will be able to do in the future. Also, hopefully in a test prep class there is no direct advantage to be gained by networking as that would defeat the purpose of the test.
    - 13y ago
thedufer 13y ago
Your argument on Quora seems to be "if I make up largely-irrelevant categories, and then make up numbers, our program looks good". I'm not sure how that's supposed to be convincing. "self-instruction period" - this seems significantly less important than total time-sink, which I'd guess doesn't run in your favor at all. "the percentage that end up writing code for a living" - I honestly don't think I've ever seen a selection bias this big. You mean people who shell out 5 figures for education are more interested than people who dabble for a couple of hours at no cost? "average starting salary" - These are much more strongly tied to negotiating ability, etc. than programming ability, although I suppose it could be considered relevant (assuming that there's still a disparity after accounting for things like other experience, other skills, etc.). I'd honestly be interested in some actual measure of programming ability. These are very hard to come by, but it seems to me that you're in a pretty good position to find a reasonable method.
- 1qaz2wsx3edc 13y ago
  I'd like to see Bootcamps with transparency over graduates and contrasted against college or tradeskill schools: 1. How many students land jobs in the tech industry or go onto other things (personal projects, adding skillsets to their employ, etc). What's the breakdown of success? 2. How much they were offered? How much in a year? 3. Follows up to the length and stability of their employment. Did you keep working for longer then 3 months, 6 months? 4. Did you have pre-experience in tech? --- I'd like to see these things, because while the programs generally provide some eye opening experience. They miss the mark at getting people a job. Business are reluctant to hire these unexperienced students (not to confuse experience with training here, I mean work experience). They fail in providing a big picture to potential students, it all feels partly snake oil without some necessary objectivity.

petea 13y ago

These Yelp reviews mean very little to be honest. What kind of an idiot would write a bad review when 1. Writing bad review of the code training you got basically admits to others that your skills as a programmer is poor. 2. You risk souring interpersonal relationship you might have built going to the program. When you say the code training you got at X is bad, you are actually telling potential employers that people who got training from X are also bad. Who writes in their grad school application that they got trained in Kaplan? --- edited point 2

shawndrost 13y ago
http://www.yelp.com/biz/kaplan-test-prep-and-admissions-san-francisco http://www.yelp.com/biz/kaplan-test-prep-and-admissions-san-... Edit: As pointed out below, this isn't a comparable institution. However, I think we can empirically test the question "Will students offer bad yelp reviews to schools that are their primary credential?" The answer seems to be yes: http://www.yelp.com/biz/bay-area-medical-academy-san-francisco http://www.yelp.com/biz/bay-area-medical-academy-san-francis... http://www.yelp.com/biz/los-angeles-film-school-los-angeles http://www.yelp.com/biz/los-angeles-film-school-los-angeles http://www.yelp.com/biz/southern-california-health-institute-north-hollywood http://www.yelp.com/biz/southern-california-health-institute...
- jaredsohn 13y ago
  I don't think Kaplan is relevant from a credentials or networking standpoint. (My understanding is that it should help you get into a school based on how your score improves on a test rather than offering direct social signaling.)
- markkanof 13y ago
  That's a bad example. When trying to get a job an interviewer could possibly see a bad review that a student left of your school and assume that means the student may not have the skills necessary for the job. Also, presumably at your school as students and instructors are interacting personal relationships are being developed (ie. networking) which could be beneficial in finding a job. If the student then gives a bad review of the school it could burn the bridges that they built while in the class. On the other hand, when someone is grading a standardized test, they grade based on how you answered the test questions. They don't do an internet search to see what kind of preparation you had for the test. It's different than a job interview because a test is judging what skills and knowledge you are demonstrating at that point in time, whereas a job interview is judging both where you are at now and what you will be able to do in the future. Also, hopefully in a test prep class there is no direct advantage to be gained by networking as that would defeat the purpose of the test.
  - 13y ago

thedufer 13y ago

Your argument on Quora seems to be "if I make up largely-irrelevant categories, and then make up numbers, our program looks good". I'm not sure how that's supposed to be convincing. "self-instruction period" - this seems significantly less important than total time-sink, which I'd guess doesn't run in your favor at all. "the percentage that end up writing code for a living" - I honestly don't think I've ever seen a selection bias this big. You mean people who shell out 5 figures for education are more interested than people who dabble for a couple of hours at no cost? "average starting salary" - These are much more strongly tied to negotiating ability, etc. than programming ability, although I suppose it could be considered relevant (assuming that there's still a disparity after accounting for things like other experience, other skills, etc.). I'd honestly be interested in some actual measure of programming ability. These are very hard to come by, but it seems to me that you're in a pretty good position to find a reasonable method.

1qaz2wsx3edc 13y ago
I'd like to see Bootcamps with transparency over graduates and contrasted against college or tradeskill schools: 1. How many students land jobs in the tech industry or go onto other things (personal projects, adding skillsets to their employ, etc). What's the breakdown of success? 2. How much they were offered? How much in a year? 3. Follows up to the length and stability of their employment. Did you keep working for longer then 3 months, 6 months? 4. Did you have pre-experience in tech? --- I'd like to see these things, because while the programs generally provide some eye opening experience. They miss the mark at getting people a job. Business are reluctant to hire these unexperienced students (not to confuse experience with training here, I mean work experience). They fail in providing a big picture to potential students, it all feels partly snake oil without some necessary objectivity.