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I won't defend the quality of the article itself and rants are never a good thing, but Westerners are never really going to understand how crippling societal no

I won't defend the quality of the article itself and rants are never a good thing, but Westerners are never really going to understand how crippling societal norms in the Indo-Pak region are. Maturity has differing definitions in the East compared to the West and personally I think it's a little unfair to make comparisons. What's considered mature in the west can often be considered immature in the east. The youth that belong to ethnic minorities in the west often under go major identity crises, and takes them a very long time to come to terms with it. Yes, we're in 2013 and there are great start-ups in India, but I'll be the first to tell you these are still huge exceptions to the rule. Things are starting to change, definitely and things are starting to move, but it's still going to take time. You cannot begin to imagine the pressure young easterners face from their parents and their families to live to the ideals of their parents and extended families. I live in the UK, I could give you over 20 examples of my own life that held me back - Now i've learned to ignore those pressures and am taking corrective action, but believe me it's not easy. I could give you over a 100 examples of others. Even when living within the West, ethnic minorities have huge pressures from the sub-culture. It's never good to blame anything or anyone - that I agree with, but to suggest that it's easy to overcome the cultural obstacles would be an unfair statement.

r0h1n 13y ago
I'm sorry but I don't agree. Cultural notions and societal pressures exist in all cultures, and India is no different. Yet in a world that is being "eaten by software", if young, educated and ambitious software developers are bemoaning centuries-old practices for their inability to take risks, the blame lies closer than they think. If they can't handle the heat, they shouldn't be in the kitchen. Get a safe, salaried job and shut up. Else cope with it. Society isn't going to change overnight, so stop moaning about it. I'm sorry if I sound harsh but I'm been seeing more than a few of these whiny posts on HN lately.
- priyaranjan 13y ago
  IMO author isn't blaming anyone here. He has failed in 2 startups and riding the 3rd one, so he pretty much seems to be trying than just complaining. He is sharing his opinion about society with a catchy title (which isn't the only take away) and should be valued.
  - r0h1n 13y ago
    > Flat, marriage and family – 3 reasons why young Indians don’t turn entrepreneurs! Um, the whole point of the post is to blame those three reasons - all external, societal or environmental - for personal decisions that educated and young programmers don't make.
- walshemj 13y ago
  But societal pressures and economic pressures are at least 1 if not 2 orders of magnitude higher in Indian and Arabic cultures than there is for white kids in the west.
  - krmmalik 13y ago
    Exactly. It's a rather arrogant for those in the West to presume they can know anything about this. They haven't the foggiest.
- krmmalik 13y ago
  The blame does indeed lie closer than we think. That's exactly my point. The problem is that those that are within that region are not recognising this fact until much later in their lives compared to their Western Counterparts. Only when you live in it, breathe it and feel it can you really recognise it's impact. It takes a long time to realise that this is where the problem lies. Not least because no one, and I mean NO ONE is talking about it. They're not talking about it, because they don't KNOW about it. I don't disagree for a second that the only person responsible for their success or lack thereof is that person themselves, but to get to that realisation takes those in the eastern culture much longer. The weight of the emotional baggage is huge. No Eric Ries, Tim Ferriss or any other 'Start-up Celebrity' is even mentioning it, because it's not even on their radar. If there had been a movement such as the Lean Start-Up movement that had addressed this problem, then those in the East would have recognised this issue much sooner and done something about it. We've had to do this all on our own. If you haven't experienced it for yourself personally, then taking a stance such as the above is presumptious - and it's not your statement of the facts that perturbs me, it's your lack of empathy. Edit: Spelling/Grammar
PeterisP 13y ago
Maturity is peculiar because it has only the definition that you make yourself. If you're mature, you're able to define maturity and your life goals yourself independently from "the pressure young easterners face from their parents and their families to live to the ideals of their parents and extended families". If you can't - then it's simple, you're not mature yet.
- krmmalik 13y ago
  That's called being True to yourself. Maturity has a very different definition in the East. A youngster who acted as if he was "true to himself" would be considered dis-obedient and maybe even a rebel. Would you say Prince William lacks maturity because he has to uphold royal values even though at times he may feel it gets a bit too much? Does that make him immature?
  - PeterisP 13y ago
    Actually, Prince William does not have to uphold royal values - he can (and probably does) choose to do so. He could also choose not to uphold royal values and choose to have a completely different life (as for example, Edward VIII) - and it is entirely his choice to make. Being a disobedient rebel is an option - and often harder, as family support is very useful and wanted; However, it is orthogonal to maturity. I'd define maturity as the ability to know if you'd be happier while fitting in your social ties or 'rebelling', and doing so. I'd define immaturity as rashly accepting any of those options without understanding what you are - blindly obeying elders against your own morals would be immature; and regretted rebellion out of spite is clearly also immature.

r0h1n 13y ago

I'm sorry but I don't agree. Cultural notions and societal pressures exist in all cultures, and India is no different. Yet in a world that is being "eaten by software", if young, educated and ambitious software developers are bemoaning centuries-old practices for their inability to take risks, the blame lies closer than they think. If they can't handle the heat, they shouldn't be in the kitchen. Get a safe, salaried job and shut up. Else cope with it. Society isn't going to change overnight, so stop moaning about it. I'm sorry if I sound harsh but I'm been seeing more than a few of these whiny posts on HN lately.

priyaranjan 13y ago
IMO author isn't blaming anyone here. He has failed in 2 startups and riding the 3rd one, so he pretty much seems to be trying than just complaining. He is sharing his opinion about society with a catchy title (which isn't the only take away) and should be valued.
- r0h1n 13y ago
  > Flat, marriage and family – 3 reasons why young Indians don’t turn entrepreneurs! Um, the whole point of the post is to blame those three reasons - all external, societal or environmental - for personal decisions that educated and young programmers don't make.
walshemj 13y ago
But societal pressures and economic pressures are at least 1 if not 2 orders of magnitude higher in Indian and Arabic cultures than there is for white kids in the west.
- krmmalik 13y ago
  Exactly. It's a rather arrogant for those in the West to presume they can know anything about this. They haven't the foggiest.
krmmalik 13y ago
The blame does indeed lie closer than we think. That's exactly my point. The problem is that those that are within that region are not recognising this fact until much later in their lives compared to their Western Counterparts. Only when you live in it, breathe it and feel it can you really recognise it's impact. It takes a long time to realise that this is where the problem lies. Not least because no one, and I mean NO ONE is talking about it. They're not talking about it, because they don't KNOW about it. I don't disagree for a second that the only person responsible for their success or lack thereof is that person themselves, but to get to that realisation takes those in the eastern culture much longer. The weight of the emotional baggage is huge. No Eric Ries, Tim Ferriss or any other 'Start-up Celebrity' is even mentioning it, because it's not even on their radar. If there had been a movement such as the Lean Start-Up movement that had addressed this problem, then those in the East would have recognised this issue much sooner and done something about it. We've had to do this all on our own. If you haven't experienced it for yourself personally, then taking a stance such as the above is presumptious - and it's not your statement of the facts that perturbs me, it's your lack of empathy. Edit: Spelling/Grammar

PeterisP 13y ago

Maturity is peculiar because it has only the definition that you make yourself. If you're mature, you're able to define maturity and your life goals yourself independently from "the pressure young easterners face from their parents and their families to live to the ideals of their parents and extended families". If you can't - then it's simple, you're not mature yet.

krmmalik 13y ago
That's called being True to yourself. Maturity has a very different definition in the East. A youngster who acted as if he was "true to himself" would be considered dis-obedient and maybe even a rebel. Would you say Prince William lacks maturity because he has to uphold royal values even though at times he may feel it gets a bit too much? Does that make him immature?
- PeterisP 13y ago
  Actually, Prince William does not have to uphold royal values - he can (and probably does) choose to do so. He could also choose not to uphold royal values and choose to have a completely different life (as for example, Edward VIII) - and it is entirely his choice to make. Being a disobedient rebel is an option - and often harder, as family support is very useful and wanted; However, it is orthogonal to maturity. I'd define maturity as the ability to know if you'd be happier while fitting in your social ties or 'rebelling', and doing so. I'd define immaturity as rashly accepting any of those options without understanding what you are - blindly obeying elders against your own morals would be immature; and regretted rebellion out of spite is clearly also immature.