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To survive without money means do many things yourself. Do many things yourself means a broad knowledge of many things. A broad knowledge of many things means t

To survive without money means do many things yourself. Do many things yourself means a broad knowledge of many things. A broad knowledge of many things means that the knowledge in any particular thing is shallow and primitive, only sufficient for the basic tasks. Therefore the life becomes a continuous sequence of primitive activities. Human civilization does not gain anything from it. We must specialize more and more if we want to push everything further. By numbing out our skills we won't achieve anything but unnecessary independence from others, which would only be beneficial if you were physically isolated from other people.

6ren 13y ago
Yes, http://www.rationaloptimist.com/ http://www.rationaloptimist.com/. Though this guy traded (barter).
mvanvoorden 13y ago
The only reason you see that human civilization doesn't gain anything from this is because you use knowledge/science to define progress. What if you tie progress to overall happiness? Living a simpler life, without the stress of i.e. too much choice or needing to have at least the same material wealth as your neighbour will be way more fulfilling than working your assoff all day, doing a job you don't like to be able to pay the loans with which you have acquired things you don't need :) We have nothing to gain from more knowledge, it only gives us more questions, more possibilities, and with that more areas to specialize in, so more jobs, to just keep us all working on finding more questions and creating more of those jobs. Endless cycle that will make life more complex every day, adding up to more stress every day and slowly making us drift away from ourselves and each other. Nice example: nowadays, in my country smart phones are used by all ages, even young children. Everywhere they are, and mostly in the train, people are not talking to each other anymore, instead they are all looking at their phones. Need to wait on something for 5 minutes? There comes the phone again. Result: nobody takes time to reflect anymore, patience is getting scarce, people are bored quickly, while the occasional case of boredom is very important. Not that I'm against scientific progress, we invented some really cool stuff, but I don't agree that numbing out our skills would achieve unnecessary independence. In a society/community where everyone is able to take care of themselves, everybody knows how tough it can be and everybody will be willing to help one another out when something goes wrong. That's not independence, that is cooperation.
- cLeEOGPw 13y ago
  > What if you tie progress to overall happiness? You are talking about Gross National Happiness, a measure that was used in Bhutan. You can read about it more to see the results. I, for one, do not wish to live in this "happy" country. > That's not independence, that is cooperation. Cooperation that relies on specialization is a better strategy than cooperation that relies on quantity. This is essentially argument equivalent to farmers from villages - sustaining themselves, no need outside help, vs specialists/engineers from cities, who need everything except the very thing they do.
- lcedp 13y ago
  > Nice example... That is very popular but false example. 1) In my country when there were no much phones around children played tamagochies and tetrisis. Teens used to listen to their CD and before that cassette players. Is was relatively popular among youth to read fiction books in the trains. It's a popular mantra today: "phones are evil, but book is good!". But what about cassette players - were they evil too? What if I read a book from my phone - is it evil or good? 2) It's quite popular today to stare in phones but guess what.. I used to do weekly 2.5 hours commutes between cities in public transport - and most people just stared.. in the window.. and still nobody was talking with strangers. The same situation applies to the trains. Of course people get acquainted if you are in the same compartments, but they don't otherwise (generally). So it's more a culture thing (maybe like in city - rural etc) then the curse of the phone.
vijayr 13y ago
"push everything further" - what does "everything" mean in this context? We've done pretty well in terms of technological, scientific advances - but we've done poorly when it comes to health, happiness, spirituality, environment etc. More people are unhappy/depressed, more people are obese, most of us are addicted to technology/cheap entertainment, most of us consume way more than we produce etc. As a species, it would be nice if we stopped for a second and ask ourselves what is it that we value the most?
- cLeEOGPw 13y ago
  > but we've done poorly when it comes to health, happiness, spirituality, environment etc. Medicine has never been better, small children almost don't die anymore, and epidemics are extremely rare. People are the happiest they have ever been. Spirituality needs to die out with the old philosophies and lay together with all the other mythologies of the centuries. Environment have never been cared more than it is cared about now. There are many species of animals who have been literally saved by the preservation of their natural habitats. Many governments are pushing towards cleaner technologies, less and less electricity proportionally is being produced by burning fossil fuels. > More people are unhappy/depressed, more people are obese These all are first world problems. These problems can be solved by the people themselves. > most of us are addicted to technology/cheap entertainment, most of us consume way more than we produce etc No, MOST of us produce more than consume. But there are small part of world population that consumes large part of world production. Countries like US and few others to be specific. If you are from that country, then congratulations, you got lucky.

6ren 13y ago

Yes, http://www.rationaloptimist.com/ http://www.rationaloptimist.com/. Though this guy traded (barter).

mvanvoorden 13y ago

The only reason you see that human civilization doesn't gain anything from this is because you use knowledge/science to define progress. What if you tie progress to overall happiness? Living a simpler life, without the stress of i.e. too much choice or needing to have at least the same material wealth as your neighbour will be way more fulfilling than working your assoff all day, doing a job you don't like to be able to pay the loans with which you have acquired things you don't need :) We have nothing to gain from more knowledge, it only gives us more questions, more possibilities, and with that more areas to specialize in, so more jobs, to just keep us all working on finding more questions and creating more of those jobs. Endless cycle that will make life more complex every day, adding up to more stress every day and slowly making us drift away from ourselves and each other. Nice example: nowadays, in my country smart phones are used by all ages, even young children. Everywhere they are, and mostly in the train, people are not talking to each other anymore, instead they are all looking at their phones. Need to wait on something for 5 minutes? There comes the phone again. Result: nobody takes time to reflect anymore, patience is getting scarce, people are bored quickly, while the occasional case of boredom is very important. Not that I'm against scientific progress, we invented some really cool stuff, but I don't agree that numbing out our skills would achieve unnecessary independence. In a society/community where everyone is able to take care of themselves, everybody knows how tough it can be and everybody will be willing to help one another out when something goes wrong. That's not independence, that is cooperation.

cLeEOGPw 13y ago
> What if you tie progress to overall happiness? You are talking about Gross National Happiness, a measure that was used in Bhutan. You can read about it more to see the results. I, for one, do not wish to live in this "happy" country. > That's not independence, that is cooperation. Cooperation that relies on specialization is a better strategy than cooperation that relies on quantity. This is essentially argument equivalent to farmers from villages - sustaining themselves, no need outside help, vs specialists/engineers from cities, who need everything except the very thing they do.
lcedp 13y ago
> Nice example... That is very popular but false example. 1) In my country when there were no much phones around children played tamagochies and tetrisis. Teens used to listen to their CD and before that cassette players. Is was relatively popular among youth to read fiction books in the trains. It's a popular mantra today: "phones are evil, but book is good!". But what about cassette players - were they evil too? What if I read a book from my phone - is it evil or good? 2) It's quite popular today to stare in phones but guess what.. I used to do weekly 2.5 hours commutes between cities in public transport - and most people just stared.. in the window.. and still nobody was talking with strangers. The same situation applies to the trains. Of course people get acquainted if you are in the same compartments, but they don't otherwise (generally). So it's more a culture thing (maybe like in city - rural etc) then the curse of the phone.

vijayr 13y ago

"push everything further" - what does "everything" mean in this context? We've done pretty well in terms of technological, scientific advances - but we've done poorly when it comes to health, happiness, spirituality, environment etc. More people are unhappy/depressed, more people are obese, most of us are addicted to technology/cheap entertainment, most of us consume way more than we produce etc. As a species, it would be nice if we stopped for a second and ask ourselves what is it that we value the most?

cLeEOGPw 13y ago
> but we've done poorly when it comes to health, happiness, spirituality, environment etc. Medicine has never been better, small children almost don't die anymore, and epidemics are extremely rare. People are the happiest they have ever been. Spirituality needs to die out with the old philosophies and lay together with all the other mythologies of the centuries. Environment have never been cared more than it is cared about now. There are many species of animals who have been literally saved by the preservation of their natural habitats. Many governments are pushing towards cleaner technologies, less and less electricity proportionally is being produced by burning fossil fuels. > More people are unhappy/depressed, more people are obese These all are first world problems. These problems can be solved by the people themselves. > most of us are addicted to technology/cheap entertainment, most of us consume way more than we produce etc No, MOST of us produce more than consume. But there are small part of world population that consumes large part of world production. Countries like US and few others to be specific. If you are from that country, then congratulations, you got lucky.