6 ms·

If the workers decided these things they would never vote to outsource their own jobs and would rarely choose to pollute their own communities. In Communist Yu

by bojan 13y ago

If the workers decided these things they would never vote to outsource their own jobs and would rarely choose to pollute their own communities. In Communist Yugoslavia we had something like that. There were companies that were managed by their employees, each having one vote. A proposal that would obtain a majority of votes would get to be implemented. But it turned out that people would rather vote to use surpluses to pay everyone bonuses than to invest back in production and modernization. Many companies got themselves outcompeted this way, especially compared to their Western counterparts. It is not a bad idea, but for that system to work you need workers that: 1) are educated in at least basics of economics and management, 2) are ready to take advice of someone with more expertise than them in these subjects, 3) are well off enough that they can sacrifice immediate additional income to enhance company's prospects for the future and 4) care enough.

bjourne 13y ago
That's not very different from having a company with an incompetent board of directors. In fact, it is exactly the same thing except in the Yugoslavia scenario every worker in the company would have a seat at the board. While it is true that some people could screw up their workplace for short term gains, is it more or less likely than an "investor" milking the company for profits and running the business to the ground?
- gnarbarian 13y ago
  Who do you think is more likely to be incompetent, the board of directors of McDonald's or 10 employees chosen at random throughout the entire organization?
  - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
    /sarcasm/ Come on! All people are equal! /sarcasm/
    - gnarbarian 13y ago
      I like you. You seem to get it. It's interesting how quickly people forget/ignore what life was like in Warsaw pact countries. Then when presented with one as an example they resort to "they practiced the wrong kind of Socialism" or "it failed because they did or didn't do X." When I ask my friends who lived there during that period they unanimously proclaim how much better life is now and how the standard of living has dramatically improved. Many more people can afford cars and there is incentive to work hard.
  - bjourne 13y ago
    I believe it would be a wash. Who do you think is more likely to be incompetent, all McDonald's 450k employees or 10 board of directors?
    - gnarbarian 13y ago
      You must not know many typical mcdonalds employees. How many do you think are college educated (let alone educated in the right areas) or even possess a GED? Compared to http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/people/board.asp?ticker=MCD http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/people/boa... Sure education isn't everything. The average mcds employee is a good person trying to earn an honest living fit to have a beer with but probably not the best source of sound investment advice. Put to a vote they would all vote to raise their wages to 15/hr and the vast majority would be unemployed in 6 months because I'd be able to get a better burger somewhere else for less money.
      - bjourne 13y ago
        The argument you are making is equivalent to arguing that dictatorship is better than democracy because regular people are too stupid to decide for themselves.
        gnarbarian 13y ago
        No... If I own something I should get to decide how I use it. To deny me that would be to deny me my private property. Owners have rights to their property. If the employees at my business owned voting stock, that would be different and a vote would be appropriate. Lets use the fishing boat analogy. So a fisherman fishes for 10 years saving his pennies and investing and builds a fishing boat with his bare hands. He (The captain) then hires 3 hands to help him run the fishing boat. If everything simply came down to a vote there would be no incentive for the captain to save for 10 years and build a boat. If the 4 fishermen had all saved their money together, and pooled their resources to build the boat equally, then they could have equal say in how the fishing operation is run.
V-2 13y ago
Well, nothing stops anyone from starting a company organized that way. It's called a cooperative.
vidarh 13y ago
You will quickly get workers that understand this as long as you allow those companies to fail and force those workers to find work in better managed companies.

by bojan 13y ago

bjourne 13y ago

That's not very different from having a company with an incompetent board of directors. In fact, it is exactly the same thing except in the Yugoslavia scenario every worker in the company would have a seat at the board. While it is true that some people could screw up their workplace for short term gains, is it more or less likely than an "investor" milking the company for profits and running the business to the ground?

gnarbarian 13y ago
Who do you think is more likely to be incompetent, the board of directors of McDonald's or 10 employees chosen at random throughout the entire organization?
- LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
  /sarcasm/ Come on! All people are equal! /sarcasm/
  - gnarbarian 13y ago
    I like you. You seem to get it. It's interesting how quickly people forget/ignore what life was like in Warsaw pact countries. Then when presented with one as an example they resort to "they practiced the wrong kind of Socialism" or "it failed because they did or didn't do X." When I ask my friends who lived there during that period they unanimously proclaim how much better life is now and how the standard of living has dramatically improved. Many more people can afford cars and there is incentive to work hard.
- bjourne 13y ago
  I believe it would be a wash. Who do you think is more likely to be incompetent, all McDonald's 450k employees or 10 board of directors?
  - gnarbarian 13y ago
    You must not know many typical mcdonalds employees. How many do you think are college educated (let alone educated in the right areas) or even possess a GED? Compared to http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/people/board.asp?ticker=MCD http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/people/boa... Sure education isn't everything. The average mcds employee is a good person trying to earn an honest living fit to have a beer with but probably not the best source of sound investment advice. Put to a vote they would all vote to raise their wages to 15/hr and the vast majority would be unemployed in 6 months because I'd be able to get a better burger somewhere else for less money.
    - bjourne 13y ago
      The argument you are making is equivalent to arguing that dictatorship is better than democracy because regular people are too stupid to decide for themselves.
      - gnarbarian 13y ago
        No... If I own something I should get to decide how I use it. To deny me that would be to deny me my private property. Owners have rights to their property. If the employees at my business owned voting stock, that would be different and a vote would be appropriate. Lets use the fishing boat analogy. So a fisherman fishes for 10 years saving his pennies and investing and builds a fishing boat with his bare hands. He (The captain) then hires 3 hands to help him run the fishing boat. If everything simply came down to a vote there would be no incentive for the captain to save for 10 years and build a boat. If the 4 fishermen had all saved their money together, and pooled their resources to build the boat equally, then they could have equal say in how the fishing operation is run.

V-2 13y ago

Well, nothing stops anyone from starting a company organized that way. It's called a cooperative.

vidarh 13y ago

You will quickly get workers that understand this as long as you allow those companies to fail and force those workers to find work in better managed companies.