7 ms·

To live in Central London without really worrying you have to be in one of two camps; the rich or the poor. The rich of course will continue to use their capit

To live in Central London without really worrying you have to be in one of two camps; the rich or the poor. The rich of course will continue to use their capital to skim the profit and secure their status, and the poor will continue to vote in councils that provide social housing and benefits. I'm one of those who is in the middle and work; I rent in an up-and-coming area (i.e. people look down on it until they come here) and rent is going up 8 times salary. We are already at rent being 30% of combined salary. I won't be in a position to get social housing, so I'll be forced to move in a few months either further out (so travelling will take longer and be more stressful, and the working day longer) or move somewhere less appealing. Property in London is controlled by the super rich who realise its easier to have their current investments increase in value by lack of supply than it is to fund property development. The shortfall in housing in London will be one million homes by 2022! The free market is supposed to mean that supply will rise up to meet demand where possible. The little property development that does go on is usually done by block selling hundreds of apartments in new builds off plan to investors from Asia/Nigeria etc. who in turn get them rented out, or insane apartments that are sold to Russians and Arabs for £100m+ pulling all other property prices up. I think that early stage tech entrepreneurship in London will be a rare thing unless you can live in your parents house and live like a student in the near future, or you will end up giving away so much capital just to survive. The more I read about Berlin the more I see it as being the future of tech in Europe; creative, cheap property and offices (in comparison), intelligent people and cosmopolitan.

wowfat 13y ago
" I rent in an up-and-coming area (i.e. people look down on it until they come here)" - what area are you renting in?
- richliss 13y ago
  Stockwell
frobozz 13y ago
The poor camp is even smaller. It's not just those who are poor enough to be eligible for social housing, but those who are lucky enough to get it, or unlucky enough to really, really need it.
- CmonDev 13y ago
  They don't have to leave in London though, they are not professionals. Plenty of other towns with cheaper property in UK.
  - vidarh 13y ago
    And lower salaries and lower employment. And if your social network is in London, many also run into situations where they can't really move. E.g. if you're a parent, living near family that can look after your child part- or full time might mean a difference of hundreds of pounds a month in child care.
    - CmonDev 13y ago
      You don't make them sound desperate, more like a "nice-to have" zone. Most immigrants loose their social network when moving, yet they still do OK.
  - frobozz 13y ago
    1. Not everyone in London is Dick Whittington (and this is also a criticism of other comments in this thread, that seems to assume this), coming for the gold-paved streets. Some people live there because they grew up there, as did their parents and so on. As do their parents still, because 30 or more years ago, it was still possible for normal people to buy a family home. 2. You sound like the Golgafrinchans. If only "professionals" live in London, who cleans up after those professionals, serves them coffee, or does any of the other non-professional tasks that keep a city moving? Do you expect your £18Kpa hairdresser (or the minimum-wage junior that sweeps up the hair) to spend £5Kpa (after tax) getting to work, or would you prefer to have go to Northampton every couple of months to get your hair cut?
selectstar 13y ago
Gentrification is a massive problem in Berlin... Mitte -> Prenzlauer Berg -> Kreuzberg -> Neukölln -> Where Next? It's absolutely not as extreme as London because most people in Berlin rent rather than own, and other costs of living are comparitively far cheaper across the board. The problem is though many people have had your idea, one that I share, and we are "spoiling" it for the locals. (Or the people who were ahead of the curve) Go for a visit, the areas I mentioned, especially the last two, are packed with British, Australian and American twenty somethings looking for that cheaper/creative/hedonistic lifestyle.
- _ak 13y ago
  To be fair, even the most gentrified areas in Berlin are still affordable compared to Hamburg, Munich or Vienna.
cjrp 13y ago
> I'm one of those who is in the middle and work; I rent in an up-and-coming area (i.e. people look down on it until they come here) and rent is going up 8 times salary. We are already at rent being 30% of combined salary. Ditto (Brixton). Flats in my area are already at the £350k (2 bed) mark, with landlords upping their rent accordingly (having bought the flat for < £200k 9yrs ago). My solution is moving further South (Surrey) near a good train line which gets you into Victoria/London Bridge in 30 mins. The rent on a flat/house out there is ~50% of what it is in London, not to mention cheaper council tax/insurance/etc.
- vidarh 13y ago
  I'm near East Croydon - you can get 2 bed houses in the ~200k range, and 3 bed houses with a garden in the 250k-300k range, and with rents to match. 15 min to Victoria 18-20 min to London Bridge, which frankly means that despite being zone 5 it's still faster to get to the centre than in a lot of places in zone 2/3. Less desirable areas of Croydon are cheaper (on the opposite end of the spectrum, you can buy 6-8 bedroom mansions in the 800k-1.5m range, still a steal compared to central London) The price pressure is so high in central London because so many people can afford it, and prefer to pay out ludicrous amounts rather than even consider moving further out - it's the opposite of the trend cited in the article: The prices are skyrocketing not because outsiders use it as investments, but because the demand make the properties a good investment. The outsiders buying explains the high purchase prices in the centre, the demand explains the pressure on rental prices.
  - CmonDev 13y ago
    I don't want to be mean, but isn't Croydon a generally undesirable area?
    - collyw 13y ago
      The whole of London is an undesirable area in my opinion. Expensive, busy, polluted, full of unfriendly people. Many people love it however.
stuaxo 13y ago
Hm.. Taxi driver I was speaking to, was on the list for social housing for 20 years before getting one. For years, the amount being sold has been much higher than being built (since Thatcher brought in right to buy). Although most housing developments have to build "affordable housing", in most of london you need to be earning £40-£60 to afford them (IE in the top 10% already).
collyw 13y ago
"The free market is supposed to mean that supply will rise up to meet demand where possible." The British property market is anything but a free market.

wowfat 13y ago

" I rent in an up-and-coming area (i.e. people look down on it until they come here)" - what area are you renting in?

richliss 13y ago
Stockwell

frobozz 13y ago

The poor camp is even smaller. It's not just those who are poor enough to be eligible for social housing, but those who are lucky enough to get it, or unlucky enough to really, really need it.

CmonDev 13y ago
They don't have to leave in London though, they are not professionals. Plenty of other towns with cheaper property in UK.
- vidarh 13y ago
  And lower salaries and lower employment. And if your social network is in London, many also run into situations where they can't really move. E.g. if you're a parent, living near family that can look after your child part- or full time might mean a difference of hundreds of pounds a month in child care.
  - CmonDev 13y ago
    You don't make them sound desperate, more like a "nice-to have" zone. Most immigrants loose their social network when moving, yet they still do OK.
- frobozz 13y ago
  1. Not everyone in London is Dick Whittington (and this is also a criticism of other comments in this thread, that seems to assume this), coming for the gold-paved streets. Some people live there because they grew up there, as did their parents and so on. As do their parents still, because 30 or more years ago, it was still possible for normal people to buy a family home. 2. You sound like the Golgafrinchans. If only "professionals" live in London, who cleans up after those professionals, serves them coffee, or does any of the other non-professional tasks that keep a city moving? Do you expect your £18Kpa hairdresser (or the minimum-wage junior that sweeps up the hair) to spend £5Kpa (after tax) getting to work, or would you prefer to have go to Northampton every couple of months to get your hair cut?

selectstar 13y ago

Gentrification is a massive problem in Berlin... Mitte -> Prenzlauer Berg -> Kreuzberg -> Neukölln -> Where Next? It's absolutely not as extreme as London because most people in Berlin rent rather than own, and other costs of living are comparitively far cheaper across the board. The problem is though many people have had your idea, one that I share, and we are "spoiling" it for the locals. (Or the people who were ahead of the curve) Go for a visit, the areas I mentioned, especially the last two, are packed with British, Australian and American twenty somethings looking for that cheaper/creative/hedonistic lifestyle.

_ak 13y ago
To be fair, even the most gentrified areas in Berlin are still affordable compared to Hamburg, Munich or Vienna.

cjrp 13y ago

> I'm one of those who is in the middle and work; I rent in an up-and-coming area (i.e. people look down on it until they come here) and rent is going up 8 times salary. We are already at rent being 30% of combined salary. Ditto (Brixton). Flats in my area are already at the £350k (2 bed) mark, with landlords upping their rent accordingly (having bought the flat for < £200k 9yrs ago). My solution is moving further South (Surrey) near a good train line which gets you into Victoria/London Bridge in 30 mins. The rent on a flat/house out there is ~50% of what it is in London, not to mention cheaper council tax/insurance/etc.

vidarh 13y ago
I'm near East Croydon - you can get 2 bed houses in the ~200k range, and 3 bed houses with a garden in the 250k-300k range, and with rents to match. 15 min to Victoria 18-20 min to London Bridge, which frankly means that despite being zone 5 it's still faster to get to the centre than in a lot of places in zone 2/3. Less desirable areas of Croydon are cheaper (on the opposite end of the spectrum, you can buy 6-8 bedroom mansions in the 800k-1.5m range, still a steal compared to central London) The price pressure is so high in central London because so many people can afford it, and prefer to pay out ludicrous amounts rather than even consider moving further out - it's the opposite of the trend cited in the article: The prices are skyrocketing not because outsiders use it as investments, but because the demand make the properties a good investment. The outsiders buying explains the high purchase prices in the centre, the demand explains the pressure on rental prices.
- CmonDev 13y ago
  I don't want to be mean, but isn't Croydon a generally undesirable area?
  - collyw 13y ago
    The whole of London is an undesirable area in my opinion. Expensive, busy, polluted, full of unfriendly people. Many people love it however.

stuaxo 13y ago

Hm.. Taxi driver I was speaking to, was on the list for social housing for 20 years before getting one. For years, the amount being sold has been much higher than being built (since Thatcher brought in right to buy). Although most housing developments have to build "affordable housing", in most of london you need to be earning £40-£60 to afford them (IE in the top 10% already).

collyw 13y ago

"The free market is supposed to mean that supply will rise up to meet demand where possible." The British property market is anything but a free market.