5 ms·

Well, email is safer in the U.S. since it's literally the only way it retains any Fourth Amendment protection, and even that is only if you own the hardware tha

by mpyne 13y ago

Well, email is safer in the U.S. since it's literally the only way it retains any Fourth Amendment protection, and even that is only if you own the hardware that the email is held on. As soon as it crosses international boundaries (even, apparently, virtual boundaries) it's fair game legally for the NSA to grab if they can. But that was true in 2012 as well. The problem now, as it was then, is that people have chosen and they are quite willing to trade some privacy for cost and convenience. The rise of mobile is only further accelerating that trend, and the lack of really good open source (or even commercial) PIM is not helping matters either. There's a reason people are switching to GMail instead of sticking with their existing free email through their own ISP, after all.

nodata 13y ago
> As soon as it crosses international boundaries [..] it's fair game legally for the NSA to grab if they can [..] people have chosen and they are quite willing to trade some privacy for cost and convenience. No they haven't. Most people haven't made this trade-off at all, they just "use e-mail".
rimantas 13y ago
> As soon as it crosses international boundaries (even, > apparently, virtual boundaries) it's fair game legally for > the NSA to grab if they can. Would you say the same if NSA was replaced by some other organization in China, Russia, Krakosia?
- yeukhon 13y ago
  Why not? You can pay people to intercept. Or you can negotiate with the government in the foreign country. Actually intel agency from different countries have a few collaborations as they continue on with their operations. Sneaking into someone's secret file is not always welcoming and can backfire so they do trade information as necessary. For example, watch a documentary on Iraq war you will find that the US, French, British and German intels were exchanging information.
- mpyne 13y ago
  Yes. I've always assumed that any useful Internet traffic crossing Chinese or Russian borders would be poached by their intelligence agencies as a matter of course. This is what they've been doing since electronic communications were proven to be valuable during WWII, after all. Why, what did you think they were doing? Even beyond that I have assumed that Internet communications of mine that are unencrypted are likely to be read by botnets, Internet-based organized crime, spammers, and a host of other unsavory characters that I really don't need snooping in my bidness. I have assumed this ever since reading Schneier back in 2001 or thereabouts and making my first GPG key. As Anon has been so fond of reminding us, "The Internet Never Forgets", and I remember that every time I use the Internet.
deleted 13y ago
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Sharlin 13y ago
Well, U.S. email is safer in the U.S. Fixed that for you. I don't like the way the article implicitly assumes an American audience, and so do the comments here. As a European, my email is certainly not safer in the US than in Europe.
- mpyne 13y ago
  I apologize for that, you're right that I'm implicitly assuming some Americanisms. Yes, as a European your email is always at theoretical risk of interception by NSA if it transits U.S. borders. Although even there the law is murky; foreigners don't lose property rights just because they visit the U.S. for instance, and the Fourth Amendment applies to foreigners within the boundaries of the U.S. So if you host your email on your own hardware, within the U.S., it's not as if the government has the authority to go rip your server off the shelves without a warrant. They can intercept your traffic between your home in Europe and the server in the U.S., but that's why we have encryption, you should always have been assuming people are snooping that anyways. On the other hand hosting email abroad from your home nation may put you at risk of European intelligence agencies warrantlessly intercepting them (even the German BND appears to have that legal authority), so I suppose that's a risk factor you'll have to balance on your own.

by mpyne 13y ago

nodata 13y ago

> As soon as it crosses international boundaries [..] it's fair game legally for the NSA to grab if they can [..] people have chosen and they are quite willing to trade some privacy for cost and convenience. No they haven't. Most people haven't made this trade-off at all, they just "use e-mail".

rimantas 13y ago

> As soon as it crosses international boundaries (even, > apparently, virtual boundaries) it's fair game legally for > the NSA to grab if they can. Would you say the same if NSA was replaced by some other organization in China, Russia, Krakosia?

yeukhon 13y ago
Why not? You can pay people to intercept. Or you can negotiate with the government in the foreign country. Actually intel agency from different countries have a few collaborations as they continue on with their operations. Sneaking into someone's secret file is not always welcoming and can backfire so they do trade information as necessary. For example, watch a documentary on Iraq war you will find that the US, French, British and German intels were exchanging information.
mpyne 13y ago
Yes. I've always assumed that any useful Internet traffic crossing Chinese or Russian borders would be poached by their intelligence agencies as a matter of course. This is what they've been doing since electronic communications were proven to be valuable during WWII, after all. Why, what did you think they were doing? Even beyond that I have assumed that Internet communications of mine that are unencrypted are likely to be read by botnets, Internet-based organized crime, spammers, and a host of other unsavory characters that I really don't need snooping in my bidness. I have assumed this ever since reading Schneier back in 2001 or thereabouts and making my first GPG key. As Anon has been so fond of reminding us, "The Internet Never Forgets", and I remember that every time I use the Internet.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

Sharlin 13y ago

Well, U.S. email is safer in the U.S. Fixed that for you. I don't like the way the article implicitly assumes an American audience, and so do the comments here. As a European, my email is certainly not safer in the US than in Europe.

mpyne 13y ago
I apologize for that, you're right that I'm implicitly assuming some Americanisms. Yes, as a European your email is always at theoretical risk of interception by NSA if it transits U.S. borders. Although even there the law is murky; foreigners don't lose property rights just because they visit the U.S. for instance, and the Fourth Amendment applies to foreigners within the boundaries of the U.S. So if you host your email on your own hardware, within the U.S., it's not as if the government has the authority to go rip your server off the shelves without a warrant. They can intercept your traffic between your home in Europe and the server in the U.S., but that's why we have encryption, you should always have been assuming people are snooping that anyways. On the other hand hosting email abroad from your home nation may put you at risk of European intelligence agencies warrantlessly intercepting them (even the German BND appears to have that legal authority), so I suppose that's a risk factor you'll have to balance on your own.