4 ms·

I'm not sure why people with a libertarian bent have to keep bringing guns into arguments. The Rule of Law is one of modern societies great inventions, as long

I'm not sure why people with a libertarian bent have to keep bringing guns into arguments. The Rule of Law is one of modern societies great inventions, as long as all parties agree to abide by it. When they don't, organised opposition (eg. protests) and negotiation are usually far better at instigating change than randomly shooting back. It's very much an i-win-you-lose mindset, I don't think it's really based much in reality and I'd rather not live anywhere near a society based on those principles.

randallsquared 13y ago
> I'm not sure why people with a libertarian bent have to keep bringing guns into arguments. Because if someone chooses to not obey, they will eventually face a gun which they did not bring.
- krapp 13y ago
  Surely the libertarian model amounts to something more productive than "the state will shoot you if you aren't ready to shoot them first?"
  - msandford 13y ago
    Yeah it's more about people interacting in a voluntary manner. The first and probably last rule of libertarian philosophy is that it's not OK to initiate aggression against others. So two individuals entering into a contract is OK but one person threatening another with violence is not. The fact that the state/government has a monopoly on violence means that your interactions with them aren't necessarily voluntary. Many people don't have a problem with paying for roads, or some semblance of a military, or schools or whatnot. But the very nature of a state is that if you don't do what it tells you to, you have no recourse. Someone might not put a gun to your head but you have to know that there's no negotiation.
    - anthonyb 13y ago
      > you have no recourse ... you have to know that there's no negotiation Bullshit. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/20/civil-disobedience-sanchez-gordillo http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/20/civil-d...
      - msandford 13y ago
        If you perform civil disobedience you can and probably will get arrested. It happens all the time. Choosing to break an unjust law doesn't mean that a judge will understand the injustice of it and let you go free, nor is there any assurance that jury would acquit you. That's what I mean when I say "there's no negotiation" Once a police officers decides to arrest you all negotiations have ceased and they may do whatever the law tells them to, or whatever the law lets them get away with, or perhaps a bit more.
- anthonyb 13y ago
  Or legal action! Of course, shooting people over "legal action" sounds crazy, so to make yourself sound better you'd better keep talking about guns. Edit: Here's a good example of the alternative to shooting people, from Bob Brown, former leader of the Greens here in Australia: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/as-always-stand-up-to-be-counted-and-youll-likely-be-shot-down-20130110-2cixc.html http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/as-... a) it works, and b) if you can't find 1000 people who are also willing to come and protest, perhaps your cause isn't that worthwhile?
msandford 13y ago
Because a gun is an excellent example of force, coercion or violence. If someone points a gun at you, you know exactly what it means. The laws, the courts, everything else is ultimately backed up by violence or the threat of violence. If you are convicted of a crime and you say you don't want to go to jail there are people whose job it is to MAKE you go to jail. If you cooperate, the threat of violence doesn't turn into actual violence but if you do not, it will materialize. It's probably the easiest way to cut out the myriad different ways that the state will back up it's laws with actions and cut to the chase: you can choose not to comply but you will pay dearly for it.
- anthonyb 13y ago
  All of which ignores that there are many different ways of interacting with the state without resorting to violence, in favour of a nice soundbite. "Libertarian or people pointing guns at you" is a false dichotomy.
  - msandford 13y ago
    Yeah sure there's a million ways but ultimately if you don't do what you're supposed to, that threat is there. I'm not suggesting that false dichotomy, you are. What I am suggesting is that the state exists in it's current form largely because it does hold the monopoly on violence. The very definition of government is that it's the entity with the monopoly on violence. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D64KcZsD82E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D64KcZsD82E How many steps removed does the guy toting the gun have to be in order for the implicit threat of violence to be OK? Zero? Two? Eight? How does the abstraction of that implicit threat make it any more palatable?

randallsquared 13y ago

> I'm not sure why people with a libertarian bent have to keep bringing guns into arguments. Because if someone chooses to not obey, they will eventually face a gun which they did not bring.

krapp 13y ago
Surely the libertarian model amounts to something more productive than "the state will shoot you if you aren't ready to shoot them first?"
- msandford 13y ago
  Yeah it's more about people interacting in a voluntary manner. The first and probably last rule of libertarian philosophy is that it's not OK to initiate aggression against others. So two individuals entering into a contract is OK but one person threatening another with violence is not. The fact that the state/government has a monopoly on violence means that your interactions with them aren't necessarily voluntary. Many people don't have a problem with paying for roads, or some semblance of a military, or schools or whatnot. But the very nature of a state is that if you don't do what it tells you to, you have no recourse. Someone might not put a gun to your head but you have to know that there's no negotiation.
  - anthonyb 13y ago
    > you have no recourse ... you have to know that there's no negotiation Bullshit. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/20/civil-disobedience-sanchez-gordillo http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/20/civil-d...
    - msandford 13y ago
      If you perform civil disobedience you can and probably will get arrested. It happens all the time. Choosing to break an unjust law doesn't mean that a judge will understand the injustice of it and let you go free, nor is there any assurance that jury would acquit you. That's what I mean when I say "there's no negotiation" Once a police officers decides to arrest you all negotiations have ceased and they may do whatever the law tells them to, or whatever the law lets them get away with, or perhaps a bit more.
anthonyb 13y ago
Or legal action! Of course, shooting people over "legal action" sounds crazy, so to make yourself sound better you'd better keep talking about guns. Edit: Here's a good example of the alternative to shooting people, from Bob Brown, former leader of the Greens here in Australia: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/as-always-stand-up-to-be-counted-and-youll-likely-be-shot-down-20130110-2cixc.html http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/as-... a) it works, and b) if you can't find 1000 people who are also willing to come and protest, perhaps your cause isn't that worthwhile?

msandford 13y ago

Because a gun is an excellent example of force, coercion or violence. If someone points a gun at you, you know exactly what it means. The laws, the courts, everything else is ultimately backed up by violence or the threat of violence. If you are convicted of a crime and you say you don't want to go to jail there are people whose job it is to MAKE you go to jail. If you cooperate, the threat of violence doesn't turn into actual violence but if you do not, it will materialize. It's probably the easiest way to cut out the myriad different ways that the state will back up it's laws with actions and cut to the chase: you can choose not to comply but you will pay dearly for it.

anthonyb 13y ago
All of which ignores that there are many different ways of interacting with the state without resorting to violence, in favour of a nice soundbite. "Libertarian or people pointing guns at you" is a false dichotomy.
- msandford 13y ago
  Yeah sure there's a million ways but ultimately if you don't do what you're supposed to, that threat is there. I'm not suggesting that false dichotomy, you are. What I am suggesting is that the state exists in it's current form largely because it does hold the monopoly on violence. The very definition of government is that it's the entity with the monopoly on violence. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D64KcZsD82E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D64KcZsD82E How many steps removed does the guy toting the gun have to be in order for the implicit threat of violence to be OK? Zero? Two? Eight? How does the abstraction of that implicit threat make it any more palatable?