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Well, here's the approximate conversion between SATs and IQ: http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/002360.html http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/002360.html . And her

by _h4xr 19y ago

Well, here's the approximate conversion between SATs and IQ: http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/002360.html http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/002360.html . And here's an interesting scatterplot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:IQatWoN_GDP_IQ.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:IQatWoN_GDP_IQ.png . Put those together, and... Also, assume they don't determine anything useful, but that schools have been magically fooled into thinking they do: what part of the conclusion to this essay changes?

amalcon 19y ago
1) IQ tests are also standardized tests. If they are somehow beyond question, why do schools just not use IQ tests? 2) Nothing. I just doubt that schools have actually been magically fooled into thinking they do: They actually get to do the regression analysis, and see that past grades are a better predictor than standardized tests. This has been well known for a long time. If applicants have been fooled, however, it allows the school to get useful effects from the test (even if the effect isn't predicting future performance).
- _h4xr 19y ago
  I don't think they're beyond question. Certainly, there's room for improvement (the cutoffs are too low. A physics PhD program isn't really interested in a test that has no measurement value for IQs over 120, or wherever it is -- and the analogy section was pretty g-loaded, so it's a shame that's been removed from the SAT, too). And schools don't just rely on standardized tests; they'll look at outside achievements, school grades, and maybe essays -- a competitive program might want people in the top 5% of intelligence, determination, and charisma -- which still means their students' academic test scores will need to be in the top 5%. 2) That holds true for studying results within schools, but not for test results overall. This is because schools admit people with roughly the same ability -- so they might have one person with test scores .5 stdev below the mean, but with a really brilliant essay. Fortunately, you don't have to take my word for it -- just look at the dropout rate among people who are admitted despite lower test scores and lower grades: http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?id=1635 http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?id=1635
axiom 19y ago
That scatterplot comes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations Which by the way predicts that the average IQ of Ethiopia is 63. Note that an IQ of 70 is considered mentally retarded. Anyone see a problem with this? Edit: my point is that it's absurd, and the study is nonesense!
- _h4xr 19y ago
  Are you saying the data are surprising, or that they're wrong?
  - rms 19y ago
    It is wrong. It is funny how much the descending list of IQs corresponds to the economic freedom of a society. It is known that IQs are culturally biased. Residents of Zimbabwe and Equatorial Guinea aren't functionally retarded but they aren't good at taking IQ tests and they happen to live in a society where it is impossible to generate wealth because of insane autocrats.
    - _h4xr 19y ago
      I'm not sure the correlation works that way. Wouldn't you expect a smarter society to, uh, trust people to make their decisions rather than leave it up to insane autocrats? It's also known that non-biased tests, like remembering a sequence of numbers and reciting it backwards, exhibit the same differences in scores.
      - jsnx 19y ago
        Why would a brilliant autocrat decide to trust the people's decisions? The political and economic freedom of Western Europe and its friends is substantially the result of historical accident -- as is the poor state of Africa. Many of the post-colonial nations experienced autocratic catastrophe, seemingly in proportion to the degree in which industrialism was a jump for them. If you want tell me what ethnic group you are descended from, I would be happy to tell you how stupid you are based on some unhappy incident in your people's history. I, for one, have a lot of German in me. Are Germans smart for their rockets or dumb for their Fuhrer?
npotter 19y ago
where's that signal to noise essay from pg? I've always viewed standardized tests as a way to approximate intelligence, but they aren't very good ones at that. A search will show a lot of discussions about why. It's pretty silly to use scores that are partially determined by a given input to prove that some people have that input. It's circular causality at best and blatant deception at worst.

by _h4xr 19y ago

amalcon 19y ago

1) IQ tests are also standardized tests. If they are somehow beyond question, why do schools just not use IQ tests? 2) Nothing. I just doubt that schools have actually been magically fooled into thinking they do: They actually get to do the regression analysis, and see that past grades are a better predictor than standardized tests. This has been well known for a long time. If applicants have been fooled, however, it allows the school to get useful effects from the test (even if the effect isn't predicting future performance).

_h4xr 19y ago
I don't think they're beyond question. Certainly, there's room for improvement (the cutoffs are too low. A physics PhD program isn't really interested in a test that has no measurement value for IQs over 120, or wherever it is -- and the analogy section was pretty g-loaded, so it's a shame that's been removed from the SAT, too). And schools don't just rely on standardized tests; they'll look at outside achievements, school grades, and maybe essays -- a competitive program might want people in the top 5% of intelligence, determination, and charisma -- which still means their students' academic test scores will need to be in the top 5%. 2) That holds true for studying results within schools, but not for test results overall. This is because schools admit people with roughly the same ability -- so they might have one person with test scores .5 stdev below the mean, but with a really brilliant essay. Fortunately, you don't have to take my word for it -- just look at the dropout rate among people who are admitted despite lower test scores and lower grades: http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?id=1635 http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?id=1635

axiom 19y ago

That scatterplot comes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations Which by the way predicts that the average IQ of Ethiopia is 63. Note that an IQ of 70 is considered mentally retarded. Anyone see a problem with this? Edit: my point is that it's absurd, and the study is nonesense!

_h4xr 19y ago
Are you saying the data are surprising, or that they're wrong?
- rms 19y ago
  It is wrong. It is funny how much the descending list of IQs corresponds to the economic freedom of a society. It is known that IQs are culturally biased. Residents of Zimbabwe and Equatorial Guinea aren't functionally retarded but they aren't good at taking IQ tests and they happen to live in a society where it is impossible to generate wealth because of insane autocrats.
  - _h4xr 19y ago
    I'm not sure the correlation works that way. Wouldn't you expect a smarter society to, uh, trust people to make their decisions rather than leave it up to insane autocrats? It's also known that non-biased tests, like remembering a sequence of numbers and reciting it backwards, exhibit the same differences in scores.
    - jsnx 19y ago
      Why would a brilliant autocrat decide to trust the people's decisions? The political and economic freedom of Western Europe and its friends is substantially the result of historical accident -- as is the poor state of Africa. Many of the post-colonial nations experienced autocratic catastrophe, seemingly in proportion to the degree in which industrialism was a jump for them. If you want tell me what ethnic group you are descended from, I would be happy to tell you how stupid you are based on some unhappy incident in your people's history. I, for one, have a lot of German in me. Are Germans smart for their rockets or dumb for their Fuhrer?

npotter 19y ago

where's that signal to noise essay from pg? I've always viewed standardized tests as a way to approximate intelligence, but they aren't very good ones at that. A search will show a lot of discussions about why. It's pretty silly to use scores that are partially determined by a given input to prove that some people have that input. It's circular causality at best and blatant deception at worst.