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"There are two parts to the Linux community. One part sees Linux as a legitimate tool they can use to bring down costs while maintaining stability. The other se

by cortesi 17y ago

"There are two parts to the Linux community. One part sees Linux as a legitimate tool they can use to bring down costs while maintaining stability. The other sees this as some kind of holy war and is really just using Linux to act like drama queens." Do you really think that the stability, low cost and quality of Open Source software is independent of the Free Software ideology? If I was being as derisive as you are above, I'd say that I hear this argument mostly from ignorant youngsters who have been lucky enough to inherit something marvellous that their elders fought hard for, but are now in danger of squandering everything through a moronic and self-centered lack of insight. The truth is that the two things go hand in hand. Without a Richard Stallman who is idealistic and paranoid enough to worry about things like patents and personal freedom, Open Source would be in much worse shape than it is now. Without a Linus Torvalds to pragmatically build excellent software within the framework put together by the community, we would be much diminished. We need both. Open Source software is often the "best tool for the job" in a technical sense precisely because it is Free, with all that implies. I personally think that we are right to be worried about Mono. We don't need to be alarmist, but we need to be wary. It's up to the Mono community to convince people that there is no licensing danger - the best way to do this is to lobby Novell and Microsoft to officially clarify the situation.

gaius 17y ago
There's an old saying, "BSD is for people who love Unix, Linux is for people who hate Microsoft".
- cortesi 17y ago
  I've heard it, and I personally use OpenBSD much more than I use Linux. There's a whole different discussion to be had about the differences between the BSD and Linux models, and why Linux has soared and the BSDs have not. At any rate, I suspect that, despite recent fireworks on the OpenBSD mailing lists, Stallman and Theo de Raadt agree much more fundamentally about the threat posed by patents and licensing than, say, Stallman and Torvalds.
  - uriel 17y ago
    While I generally agree, I find Theo's positions much more consistent an principled than RMS's, although to Stallman's credit he gave the FSF award to Theo some years back for all the amazing work the OpenBSD people have done on opening up hardware specs and so on. Theo is also contrary to general opinion a really cool and friendly guy, and often (but not always) when he acts like a jerk is because somebody deserves it.
- rbanffy 17y ago
  Maybe, but wouldn't you hate a company that pulls every dirty trick to harm you, your reputation, your business and that is absolutely committed to extend its monopoly by destroying everything you worked so hard to help create? And, BTW, to replace your beautiful creations with the crappiest code seen on Earth?
- uriel 17y ago
  Actually BSD is for people that love BSD (some would even say LSD ;)), Plan 9 is for people that understood and loved Unix before it died.
cschwarm 17y ago
> "Do you really think that the stability, low cost and quality of Open Source software is independent of the Free Software ideology?" Well, I do. Open Source is basically just Economics. An initial release of source code happens because there's often no (more) alternative usage for it. From a product point of view, it's often unfinished. Turning it into something that could have an alternative use -- such as being sold as Closed Source Software, for example -- usually requires additional efforts; additional investments of time and money. Another reason for releasing the source code is the "death" of former Closed Source Software: Either it was killed by competition or because people's wants and needs changed. No or little future profit is to be expected. In both cases holds: The opportunity costs of releasing the source code are low or even zero. One looses nothing by releasing the source code. If you'd loose something, you simply wouldn't release it. And every Open Source advocate is fine with that. As for contributing to Open Source: It simply pays. If a developer is sufficiently annoyed by a missing feature or a bug to justify make a patch, it will happen. It's pure self-interest. It's economic behaviour. The next stage is the more important one: Why send the patch upstream? That's simply, again. First, the opportunity costs of sending the patch is zero, again. The developer couldn't use the code of the patch for anything else. Second, sending the patch upstream, will save him effort. If he (or she) wouldn't send the patch, that's basically a fork so he or she would have to waste his time solving conflicts, etc. Sending the patch upstream is, in most cases, pure self-interest. It's economic behaviour. Accepting a patch is usually also rational, for it improves the source code for the original developer. In other words: each stage of releasing initial source code, making patches that fixes bugs and improves the functionality, and accepting these, is entirely self-interest and economic behaviour. No need for any ideology. Your argument that Open Source wouldn't exists without Richard Stallman, is basically useless: How could we know whether it wouldn't? It's an empirical question that cannot be tested with an experiment. However, we can make some analogies: Solutions are often invented when problems exists. In nature, the eye was invented several times independently because it helped the creatures to survive more often. So, it seems save to say: Without Stallman, something like Open Source would have been invented by others. In fact, Project Gutenberg -- free distribution of classic texts -- was invented in 1971, already. The first BSD "distribution" was assembled in 1977. Several others released source code without ever having heard about Stallman and Free Software, before. Again, no need for any ideology.

by cortesi 17y ago

gaius 17y ago

There's an old saying, "BSD is for people who love Unix, Linux is for people who hate Microsoft".

cortesi 17y ago
I've heard it, and I personally use OpenBSD much more than I use Linux. There's a whole different discussion to be had about the differences between the BSD and Linux models, and why Linux has soared and the BSDs have not. At any rate, I suspect that, despite recent fireworks on the OpenBSD mailing lists, Stallman and Theo de Raadt agree much more fundamentally about the threat posed by patents and licensing than, say, Stallman and Torvalds.
- uriel 17y ago
  While I generally agree, I find Theo's positions much more consistent an principled than RMS's, although to Stallman's credit he gave the FSF award to Theo some years back for all the amazing work the OpenBSD people have done on opening up hardware specs and so on. Theo is also contrary to general opinion a really cool and friendly guy, and often (but not always) when he acts like a jerk is because somebody deserves it.
rbanffy 17y ago
Maybe, but wouldn't you hate a company that pulls every dirty trick to harm you, your reputation, your business and that is absolutely committed to extend its monopoly by destroying everything you worked so hard to help create? And, BTW, to replace your beautiful creations with the crappiest code seen on Earth?
uriel 17y ago
Actually BSD is for people that love BSD (some would even say LSD ;)), Plan 9 is for people that understood and loved Unix before it died.

cschwarm 17y ago

> "Do you really think that the stability, low cost and quality of Open Source software is independent of the Free Software ideology?" Well, I do. Open Source is basically just Economics. An initial release of source code happens because there's often no (more) alternative usage for it. From a product point of view, it's often unfinished. Turning it into something that could have an alternative use -- such as being sold as Closed Source Software, for example -- usually requires additional efforts; additional investments of time and money. Another reason for releasing the source code is the "death" of former Closed Source Software: Either it was killed by competition or because people's wants and needs changed. No or little future profit is to be expected. In both cases holds: The opportunity costs of releasing the source code are low or even zero. One looses nothing by releasing the source code. If you'd loose something, you simply wouldn't release it. And every Open Source advocate is fine with that. As for contributing to Open Source: It simply pays. If a developer is sufficiently annoyed by a missing feature or a bug to justify make a patch, it will happen. It's pure self-interest. It's economic behaviour. The next stage is the more important one: Why send the patch upstream? That's simply, again. First, the opportunity costs of sending the patch is zero, again. The developer couldn't use the code of the patch for anything else. Second, sending the patch upstream, will save him effort. If he (or she) wouldn't send the patch, that's basically a fork so he or she would have to waste his time solving conflicts, etc. Sending the patch upstream is, in most cases, pure self-interest. It's economic behaviour. Accepting a patch is usually also rational, for it improves the source code for the original developer. In other words: each stage of releasing initial source code, making patches that fixes bugs and improves the functionality, and accepting these, is entirely self-interest and economic behaviour. No need for any ideology. Your argument that Open Source wouldn't exists without Richard Stallman, is basically useless: How could we know whether it wouldn't? It's an empirical question that cannot be tested with an experiment. However, we can make some analogies: Solutions are often invented when problems exists. In nature, the eye was invented several times independently because it helped the creatures to survive more often. So, it seems save to say: Without Stallman, something like Open Source would have been invented by others. In fact, Project Gutenberg -- free distribution of classic texts -- was invented in 1971, already. The first BSD "distribution" was assembled in 1977. Several others released source code without ever having heard about Stallman and Free Software, before. Again, no need for any ideology.