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Richard Feynman: Cargo Cult Science (1974)
- justarandomanon 13y agoExcellent read. Maintaining integrity in daily life has been a constant struggle. For many people, myself included, paying bills or taking care of people that depend on you can get in the way of integrity and it's a shame. Mr Feynman is lucky in that his skills will allow him to have his cake and eat it so to speak, not to discredit his message.
- robbiep 13y agoExcept he died of cancer (probably related to his work on the manhattan project) in 1989. This article seems to appear every couple of months. Still enjoyable and useful however.
- magicalist 13y ago> Except he died of cancer (probably related to his work on the manhattan project) Feynman was a theoretical physicist. Direct exposure to fissile materials in a lab or factory environment is hard enough to reliably correlate with cancer rates[1][2] (we're all exposed to a lot of ionizing radiation over the course of our lives), but Feynman's exposure during the Manhattan project would have been extremely minimal, making any connection to his eventual cancer is virtually impossible. [1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9314220 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9314220 [2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10098774 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10098774
- jamesbritt 13y agoWould being a witness to the first blast be a source of radiation? At the first test explosion of an atomic bomb, Feynman was the only scientist who eschewed protective goggles and watched the blast with unshielded eyes — he wanted to see the explosion clearly, and had researched the danger and confidently concluded that the risk to his vision was negligible. http://www.nndb.com/people/584/000026506/ http://www.nndb.com/people/584/000026506/
- mikeash 13y agoNot very much, no. Were cancer rates among those witnesses much higher than in the general population? (Note that the goggles really do nothing when it comes to cancer, so that bit is irrelevant.) The immediate radiation dose from a nuclear explosion is generally low. It's the fallout that gets you, hours or days later. Even then, the risk is acute poisoning, not so much long-term cancer risk.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y agoIIRC, he sat behind a vehicle's windshield for the benefit of the UV protection it offered. But, no, remember, he died in 1988, more than 40 years later. What type of cancer takes 40 years to show up?
- fnordfnordfnord 13y agoWe can probably agree that Feynman's cancer wasn't directly due to his work on the Manhattan Project, but not for the reasons you cite. He died >40 years after the Manhattan Project. Feynman tells several anecdotes which indicate that he and others may have had significant exposure, and that he certainly had many opportunities for exposure. The Manhattan Project was unlike any other science project to follow in that not only was worker safety much less of a concern but the danger was also less well understood than in any successive project. Additionally, all involved persons were encamped together at Los Alamos, Oak Ridge, Hanford, and Argonne, working closely together on a daily basis, milling about each others' labs, sharing other facilities. It is lucky, with the safety regime in place that more people were not killed or harmed. http://www.orau.org/ptp/pdf/accidentsurvivorslanl.pdf http://www.orau.org/ptp/pdf/accidentsurvivorslanl.pdf
- magicalist 13y agoI'm not sure what you mean; that was exactly my point. His exposure was likely minimal (I can't recall anything suggesting he was close to any criticality assemblage tests), but his exposure level is still more or less irrelevant. It's basically impossible to separate anyone involved in the Manhattan project that didn't die immediately from exposure from expected background population cancer rates. That's stated pretty explicitly--even for those few most directly exposed in accidents--in the discussion section of the paper you link (which my first linked paper was a followup study to, 20 years later, btw), and it was found to be true in the larger population of nuclear material workers in the second paper (who were, indeed, working in an environment where much more was known about how to control the dangers of what they were working with).
- VLM 13y ago"worker safety much less of a concern but the danger was also less well understood" Another important point is to people who don't understand the physics, something not understood "must" be feared, therefore the most dangerous part must have been the physics. However I understand at least some of the chemistry and industrial processes using bulk hydrofluoric scare me more than the physics. Aside from the mechanical / explosive hazards, of course (machine plastic explosives to precise shapes on a milling machine for the implosion weapons, are you insane? You're hooking up a zillion blasting caps to .. what?)
- gwern 13y ago> Except he died of cancer (probably related to his work on the manhattan project) in 1989. Something like a fifth of the American population will die of cancer, without ever having worked on the Manhattan population.
- cma 13y agoThe exception that proves the rule.
- TheZenPsycho 13y ago"worked on the Manhattan population" is an interesting linguistic slip. [saving for AI research]
- fnordfnordfnord 13y agoEveryone got to enjoy the thousand or so atmospheric tests that were conducted.
- adharmad 13y agoThere is no evidence that the cancer he got was related to his work on the Manhattan project.
- jnotarstefano 13y agoI love this speech so much I wrote an italian translation for my blog. Which other speeches in science do you think are worth a translation?
- euoia 13y agoRandy Pausch: Really Achieving Your Childhood Dreams.
- jnotarstefano 13y agoI loved that. But I fear a blog post can't do justice to Pausch's excellent delivery.
- ot 13y agoThe following two are among the most enlightening I can remember. * Richard Hamming's "You and Your Research" http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html * Gian-Carlo Rota's "Ten Lessons I wish I had been Taught" http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~cahn/life/gian-carlo-rota-10-lessons.html http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~cahn/life/gian-carlo-rota-10-le... P.S. Ciao Pino! :)
- jnotarstefano 13y agoExcellent suggestions! Thank you, ot.
- md224 13y ago> In summary, the idea is to give all of the information to help others to judge the value of your contribution; not just the information that leads to judgement in one particular direction or another. Sometimes I think if we could extend this principle to human communication in general, we'd end up with a lot less misinformation. I try to communicate doubts or possible weaknesses in my arguments when I can, though it's difficult and I'm sure I've failed to do so on numerous occasions. It occurs to me that perhaps we simply don't have the cognitive capacity to include that level of information in our everyday communications. Still, I wonder if perhaps this should be an ideal to strive for. Information travels so fast now, and it seems like most people aren't very mindful of how they participate in this transmission.
- nazgulnarsil 13y agoFor the general audience total confidence always beats the person who delivers a confidence interval. Hedgehogs also beat foxes, despite the obvious difference in prediction accuracy in favor of foxes.
- md224 13y agoYeah I was actually considering that as well, in terms of how information evolves. Whatever is best at spreading will spread.
- wging 13y agoPerhaps the answer is a kind of confident non-confidence. "I have studied this problem and am about 70% confident that the answer is this, and I am confident there's not enough information available to be more certain than that. If anyone tells you they know the answer for certain, they are probably trying to sell you something."
- nazgulnarsil 13y agoI think this is a really valuable approach to try, thank you.
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- sarreph 13y agoSurely You're Joking, Mr Feynman is a brilliant read. My high school Physics teacher lent it to me a few years ago; it really opened my eyes and increased my love for the subject.
- kops 13y agoI first spotted that book in 1993, when a semi-illiterate guy passed it to my dad. The book came from a person who runs a school "Feynman public school" in a place called Bharatpur in northern India. It was the best thing that happened to me in 1993 and there was quite a lot that happened that year in my life... The part that got me hooked was "he fixes radios by thinking" and then sure enough I learnt a bit of safe-cracking too :-) His lectures on physics were the most beautiful books sitting on my shelf during my school years(never read them), but in India cool kids aren't supposed to be theoretical physicists... they are supposed to be Engineers..and so here I am...
- projectileboy 13y agoReading the Feynman Lectures on Physics is a lot to ask of anyone, even many physicists. But if you'd like to appreciate a gem, crack open Volume I and read Chapter 22 - "Algebra". He starts with the ability to count integers, and then proceeds to derive Euler's Formula. Not rigorous mathematics to be sure, but easily my favorite piece of writing (fiction or non-fiction).
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- ash 13y agoLink to Chapter 22 ("Algebra") online: http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/I_22.html http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/I_22.html
- arjunnarayan 13y agoOh boy was that a good read. Thank you!
- dlsx 13y agoI didn't truly respect and understand Feynman until I read American Prometheus: The Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer And it really shows how important Mr. Feynman was to not only making the first computerized filing system for the manhattan project, but also in solving some of the crucial challenges they faced. He had such a unique way of approaching physics that I think a lot of his contemporaries admired.
- MikeCapone 13y agoThat was a great biography. Oppenheimer is fascinating in his own right.
- alrs 13y agoThat this story can thrive on HN every few months is a strong indicator that a nontrivial chunk of the userbase is 16.
- mikeash 13y agoWhy, do only 16-year-olds read interesting stories from famous physicists?
- alrs 13y agoIt's a great speech. Having never seen this before is perfectly reasonable if you're new.
- mikeash 13y agoAnd it's unreasonable to have never seen this if you're older?? I don't know about you, but I still discover new things despite being twice the quoted age. http://xkcd.com/1053/ http://xkcd.com/1053/
- alrs 13y agohttps://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/submissions&q=cargo+cult&sortby=create_ts+desc&start=0 https://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/submissions&q=cargo+...
- mikeash 13y agoI don't understand your point. Or you don't understand mine. My point is that age is irrelevant. "Newness" may be, but that doesn't imply age.
- sliverstorm 13y agoHis point is something along the lines of, the older you are the more likely that you've heard of it, especially if you have a history of reading HN much.
- triplesec 13y agoThis story has been particularly sccessful on HN recently partly because of this year's Burning Man festival's theme being "cargo cult". Quite happy to see this pop up again. Feynman never goes out of style.
- mhartl 13y agoThis year at Burning Man, I happened to notice a car with the California state license plate "TUVA". I recognized it as belonging to Ralph Leighton, Feynman's close friend and author of Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!. (The plate is a reference to the story recounted in [Tuva or Bust!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuva_or_Bust! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuva_or_Bust!).) I reached out to Ralph, and it turns out he wasn't there but his son was. I thought it was a fun coincidence given the theme of the burn.
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- auctiontheory 13y agoNot to distract from the Important Scientific Discussion, but Esalen is as wonderful today as it was back then. The hot tubs and showers have been rebuilt, and the scenery is just as striking. Out of this world. If you're there over Thanksgiving, say hi.
- peterwwillis 13y agoHow does it compare to Harbin? I was just there and it was also lovely (a bit too much like a resort than i'd prefer, though) Also off of the scientific tangent: If you find yourself in a hot tub with a beautiful nude and no idea what to say, compare poetry to liquid thermodynamics. "Rock Star" doesn't begin to cover it.
- auctiontheory 13y agoVery different vibe from Harbin, plus of course the ocean. Much more of a sense of "community" at Esalen, while at Harbin you generally interact with the people you came with, if any.
- nice1 13y agoYou can easily guess where Feynman would stand on global warming ...
- dschiptsov 13y agoYeah, yeah. Java - the planes don't land.