4 ms·

> This seems about right for a frugal life in the burbs. More than these peasants deserve, right? I mean, why should people providing a vital service to a city

> This seems about right for a frugal life in the burbs. More than these peasants deserve, right? I mean, why should people providing a vital service to a city feel entitled to live amongst the betters they serve?

jamesaguilar 13y ago
Yeah, unskilled, replaceable labor doesn't get paid much. That is how it always has been, and I don't see it as a huge, immediate problem. These folks are already making way more than people of similar levels of skill in other parts of the country -- in fact, they are double the median income in the US. There are plenty of other essential services, like garbage people, chefs, janitors, cabbies, etc. that get paid less and require similar levels of education. I mean, when we remove scarcity, sure, give all the BART workers mansions. But until then, I think this is a fine wage for doing work that's on the block for being automated in ten or twenty years.
- nknighthb 13y ago
  > unskilled, replaceable labor Go get a job as a BART driver. Report back how unskilled and replaceable they are. And report your salary. It'll be lower than you're expecting. All the numbers you're being fed (including the ones on the linked page) are misleading unless you actually consider them from the perspective of a BART employee progressing through his career from the beginning.
  - jamesaguilar 13y ago
    I am not going to do what you suggested. If you want to explain why you think Bart driving is skilled, hard to replace labor, that would be productive, but telling me to change my career is not an argument. It is not exactly a revelation that people just starting out in a career get paid less than experienced folks, especially in labor markets controlled by unions.
    - nknighthb 13y ago
      > I am not going to do what you suggested. Then what makes you think you can argue they're overpaid? > If you want to explain why you think Bart driving is skilled, hard to replace labor I know absolutely no one who has not gone through significant training who I would trust at the controls of a huge vehicle like a bus or train. I also don't know many people who want to drive around at night alone picking strangers up.
      - jamesaguilar 13y ago
        Same thing that makes you think you can argue they are underpaid. > I know absolutely no one ... How many people do you know who only have a high school diploma? Who have no other options that pay more than $60k/year?
        nknighthb 13y ago
        Hmm... did I say they were underpaid? > How many people do you know who only have a high school diploma? My parents, all my grandparents, most of my aunts and uncles, most of my cousins. I would say "me", but that would be a lie, because I don't even have a high school diploma. Not sure about friends and acquaintances. Most of them are tech workers, so formal education rarely comes up. > Who have no other options that pay more than $60k/year? Lots of the people I mention, including myself, make or have in the past made more than $60k/year (at least inflation-adjusted). Pieces of paper from a broken educational system are not determinant of how much someone can or should make.
        jamesaguilar 13y ago
        You implied that they should be paid enough to live in downtown SF, which I think is equivalent to claiming they should be paid more. If not, let's just assume I can come up with some convoluted reason why I'm not talking about their pay either, and we can just stop talking about it. > Pieces of paper from a broken educational system are not determinant of how much someone can or should make. Certainly agree with that. The demand for the work you can do and your ability to do the work with quality should be the main determinants. So I guess we'll see how much the city is willing to pay, and how far the BART workers are willing to push them before they just get replaced. Our discussion on the matter is kind of a non-factor.
dxhdr 13y ago
> More than these peasants deserve, right? I mean, why should people providing a vital service to a city feel entitled to live amongst the betters they serve? No kidding, this is highly skilled labor we're talking about. Not to mention the years of schooling and study required to excel at the profession. These jobs aren't easy to fill.
- nknighthb 13y ago
  Are you willing to do the work? And who cares if it's highly skilled? Isn't price decoupled from cost? If you're going to argue from a capitalist perspective, be consistent.
  - walshemj 13y ago
    Theres no Big guy with a white beard who's going to reach down and say "you yes you with 2.2 in business studies from Luton University are worth X and those uppity train drivers must work for minimum wage" Ps Luton is the Uni that props up the bottom of the university league tables in the UK
stevewilber 13y ago
Bart serves most of the Bay Area, not just the City. As far as I'm concerned, a frugal life in the burbs is a good life. Most of the developers I know live that way.
- nknighthb 13y ago
  Most of the developers you know never eat out, have poor housing, no smartphones or other luxury gadgets, old, cheap cars, a spouse, two kids, and reveal their budget to you? You have no idea what "frugal" means.

jamesaguilar 13y ago

Yeah, unskilled, replaceable labor doesn't get paid much. That is how it always has been, and I don't see it as a huge, immediate problem. These folks are already making way more than people of similar levels of skill in other parts of the country -- in fact, they are double the median income in the US. There are plenty of other essential services, like garbage people, chefs, janitors, cabbies, etc. that get paid less and require similar levels of education. I mean, when we remove scarcity, sure, give all the BART workers mansions. But until then, I think this is a fine wage for doing work that's on the block for being automated in ten or twenty years.

nknighthb 13y ago
> unskilled, replaceable labor Go get a job as a BART driver. Report back how unskilled and replaceable they are. And report your salary. It'll be lower than you're expecting. All the numbers you're being fed (including the ones on the linked page) are misleading unless you actually consider them from the perspective of a BART employee progressing through his career from the beginning.
- jamesaguilar 13y ago
  I am not going to do what you suggested. If you want to explain why you think Bart driving is skilled, hard to replace labor, that would be productive, but telling me to change my career is not an argument. It is not exactly a revelation that people just starting out in a career get paid less than experienced folks, especially in labor markets controlled by unions.
  - nknighthb 13y ago
    > I am not going to do what you suggested. Then what makes you think you can argue they're overpaid? > If you want to explain why you think Bart driving is skilled, hard to replace labor I know absolutely no one who has not gone through significant training who I would trust at the controls of a huge vehicle like a bus or train. I also don't know many people who want to drive around at night alone picking strangers up.
    - jamesaguilar 13y ago
      Same thing that makes you think you can argue they are underpaid. > I know absolutely no one ... How many people do you know who only have a high school diploma? Who have no other options that pay more than $60k/year?
      - nknighthb 13y ago
        Hmm... did I say they were underpaid? > How many people do you know who only have a high school diploma? My parents, all my grandparents, most of my aunts and uncles, most of my cousins. I would say "me", but that would be a lie, because I don't even have a high school diploma. Not sure about friends and acquaintances. Most of them are tech workers, so formal education rarely comes up. > Who have no other options that pay more than $60k/year? Lots of the people I mention, including myself, make or have in the past made more than $60k/year (at least inflation-adjusted). Pieces of paper from a broken educational system are not determinant of how much someone can or should make.
        jamesaguilar 13y ago
        You implied that they should be paid enough to live in downtown SF, which I think is equivalent to claiming they should be paid more. If not, let's just assume I can come up with some convoluted reason why I'm not talking about their pay either, and we can just stop talking about it. > Pieces of paper from a broken educational system are not determinant of how much someone can or should make. Certainly agree with that. The demand for the work you can do and your ability to do the work with quality should be the main determinants. So I guess we'll see how much the city is willing to pay, and how far the BART workers are willing to push them before they just get replaced. Our discussion on the matter is kind of a non-factor.

dxhdr 13y ago

> More than these peasants deserve, right? I mean, why should people providing a vital service to a city feel entitled to live amongst the betters they serve? No kidding, this is highly skilled labor we're talking about. Not to mention the years of schooling and study required to excel at the profession. These jobs aren't easy to fill.

nknighthb 13y ago
Are you willing to do the work? And who cares if it's highly skilled? Isn't price decoupled from cost? If you're going to argue from a capitalist perspective, be consistent.
- walshemj 13y ago
  Theres no Big guy with a white beard who's going to reach down and say "you yes you with 2.2 in business studies from Luton University are worth X and those uppity train drivers must work for minimum wage" Ps Luton is the Uni that props up the bottom of the university league tables in the UK

stevewilber 13y ago

Bart serves most of the Bay Area, not just the City. As far as I'm concerned, a frugal life in the burbs is a good life. Most of the developers I know live that way.

nknighthb 13y ago
Most of the developers you know never eat out, have poor housing, no smartphones or other luxury gadgets, old, cheap cars, a spouse, two kids, and reveal their budget to you? You have no idea what "frugal" means.