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No man has ever touched the rear of any female by first asking bluntly, "Is it alright if I touch your butt?". No woman has ever told a man, "I would now like y

No man has ever touched the rear of any female by first asking bluntly, "Is it alright if I touch your butt?". No woman has ever told a man, "I would now like you to touch my butt." While I agree with you that this is less common than communicating through body language, it sounds like a great exaggeration to say "No man" or "No woman".

chris_wot 13y ago
I keep coming back to the fact that the one doing the groping was the boss. Let's be very clear here - if you have anyone who you are managing, then you need to take care not to get drunk and horny around them, you must certainly never initiate a sexual relationship of any sort with them unless you first take steps to ensure that any power imbalance is removed (this is almost impossible), and you should take care never to allow alcohol to impair your judgement whilst at work-related events. Frankly, I can't believe I even have to say this. This should be obvious, and if not then it should be made clear to anyone in management that there are certain boundaries you must not cross. There is a very valid reason why managers are normally somewhat aloof from their staff - it is wise to remember the maxim that it is often lonely at the top.
- gregd 13y ago
  This. lawnchair_larry says, "So this man, a drunk, sexual being, who was not holding someone against their will or being violent, kept testing his boundaries and not receiving any indication that he had crossed a line." The mere fact that Justine was a subordinate was already a line Joe crossed. I would also argue that this subordinate relationship was akin to "holding someone against their will".
  - lawnchair_larry 13y ago
    I can't wait to see you guys give that lecture to Sergey Brin. This stuff happens. Personally I'm going to call Sergey and Amanda "Probably not a great idea", rather than your implied suggestion of "Sergey is guilty of sexual assault and is holding her against her will". But we can agree to disagree.
    - chris_wot 13y ago
      Yeah, because that little love triangle wasn't a complete and total disaster. By the by, I don't recall that Brin shoved his hand down her pants at a conference and penetrated her with his fingers in a drunken stupor. Perhaps you didn't read that bit about removing the power imbalance first? The issue is that while you give us an example it's really an outlier, and not the same at all.
- Nimi 13y ago
  Completely agree. Also, we don't need to be very clear here - that's what sexual harassment laws are for. This isn't (only) a norm, this is a law, and although IANAL, it sounds like she has grounds to sue. Not only was the "wandering hands" inappropriate, pressuring her into doing a body shot was inappropriate as well. The fact that the boss was drunk is a mitigating factor, not a grab-your-subordinates-ass-free card. I'm willing to assume he isn't a predator but a regular Joe who got drunk and made a mistake, but that doesn't absolve him of guilt.

chris_wot 13y ago

I keep coming back to the fact that the one doing the groping was the boss. Let's be very clear here - if you have anyone who you are managing, then you need to take care not to get drunk and horny around them, you must certainly never initiate a sexual relationship of any sort with them unless you first take steps to ensure that any power imbalance is removed (this is almost impossible), and you should take care never to allow alcohol to impair your judgement whilst at work-related events. Frankly, I can't believe I even have to say this. This should be obvious, and if not then it should be made clear to anyone in management that there are certain boundaries you must not cross. There is a very valid reason why managers are normally somewhat aloof from their staff - it is wise to remember the maxim that it is often lonely at the top.

gregd 13y ago
This. lawnchair_larry says, "So this man, a drunk, sexual being, who was not holding someone against their will or being violent, kept testing his boundaries and not receiving any indication that he had crossed a line." The mere fact that Justine was a subordinate was already a line Joe crossed. I would also argue that this subordinate relationship was akin to "holding someone against their will".
- lawnchair_larry 13y ago
  I can't wait to see you guys give that lecture to Sergey Brin. This stuff happens. Personally I'm going to call Sergey and Amanda "Probably not a great idea", rather than your implied suggestion of "Sergey is guilty of sexual assault and is holding her against her will". But we can agree to disagree.
  - chris_wot 13y ago
    Yeah, because that little love triangle wasn't a complete and total disaster. By the by, I don't recall that Brin shoved his hand down her pants at a conference and penetrated her with his fingers in a drunken stupor. Perhaps you didn't read that bit about removing the power imbalance first? The issue is that while you give us an example it's really an outlier, and not the same at all.
Nimi 13y ago
Completely agree. Also, we don't need to be very clear here - that's what sexual harassment laws are for. This isn't (only) a norm, this is a law, and although IANAL, it sounds like she has grounds to sue. Not only was the "wandering hands" inappropriate, pressuring her into doing a body shot was inappropriate as well. The fact that the boss was drunk is a mitigating factor, not a grab-your-subordinates-ass-free card. I'm willing to assume he isn't a predator but a regular Joe who got drunk and made a mistake, but that doesn't absolve him of guilt.