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That's a lot of ad hominem we got there. You may want to slow down a bit and take things easy. >Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she w

That's a lot of ad hominem we got there. You may want to slow down a bit and take things easy. >Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she was offering anything else "A body shot is a shot of alcohol (such as tequila) that is consumed from a person's body, usually from erogenous zones such as the navel or the breasts." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_play#Alcohol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_play#Alcohol) Reading further: "An erogenous zone (from Greek ἔρως eros "love" and English -genous "producing" from Greek -γενής -genes "born") is an area of the human body that has heightened sensitivity, the stimulation of which may result in the production of sexual fantasies, sexual arousal and orgasm." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erogenous_zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erogenous_zone) Please take note of the part involving "sexual fantasies, sexual arousal and orgasm". She peeled her shirt up in a submissive position on a bar with lots of alcohol involved. Which part are you missing?

kallekalle 13y ago
Let's set aside the fact that you've just decided to do a body shot off a colleague. > I cannot explain to men how hard it is being a woman trying to play it cool in an industry of men. I want everyone to think I’m cool and relaxed so I try and just play by their rules. Regardless I got on the bar and lifted my shirt as far as I was comfortable. You cite Wikipedia like it was a boolean logic kind of situation where just taking part means an invitation to anything a drunk brain can come up with. Being drunk is not an excuse. Sincerely, a dude who likes women
- pearjuice 13y ago
  If being drunk is not an excuse why did she throw all of her responsibilities out of the window and decided to climb on that bar, lift her shirt in front of colleagues and other professionals in her field? >I want everyone to think I’m cool and relaxed so I try and just play by their rules. followed by "Regardless" says a lot about her sense of responsibility and ability to see what exactly she was doing, implying and portraying by lying down on that bar. Or was it the alcohol? Because certainly nobody lifted her on that bar, right? Nobody pushed her down when her boss groped her? Nobody held her mouth open when her boss sticked his tongue in? Nobody told her "your boss has all right to touch you, Justine. Stay flat, your boyfriend will never know"?
  - gregd 13y ago
    Jesus christ. Lying down on bar - doing body shot != permission to sexually assault.
    - general_failure 13y ago
      I disagree. I have never heard the term body shot before but from all wikipedia tells me, I would conside it acceptable for a man to grab a womaons ass if the woman was in a body shot. If the woman screams no that's a different this g but it didnt happen here.
      - gregd 13y ago
        I disagree So you believe that if you do a body shot of off someone, you then have permission to sexually assault them? Wow..
        jacobtracey 13y ago
        People in this world do just grab peoples asses, kiss them, etc. all the time without explicit consent. Even without doing body shots.
        general_failure 13y ago
        Exactly. If someone goes as far as a body shot , I consider something like kissing very minor detail. Maybe its a cultural thing. I see this in movies all the time. Now you guys are telling me its sexual assault.
        chris_wot 13y ago
        Indeed, we are.
        steveklabnik 13y ago
        We call this "rape culture."
thomasmeeks 13y ago
Your definitions are tangential to the argument. A body shot is risque, but they are not an open invitation to groping and fingering. Your point amounts to "her skirt was too short." Before you cry out straw-man, don't. Nowhere on wikipedia does it say body shots guarantee consent to groping and fingering. The fact it occurred on her navel doesn't mean 'yes'. By all accounts she was at least tipsy, if not outright drunk. Further, Joe was her boss at the time (i.e. position of authority). The responsibility was squarely on his shoulders to be 110% positive that his advances were welcomed. Whether he was unable to do that because he was too drunk, too excited, or didn't care does not matter. He failed in that responsibility and it is nobody's fault but his own.
- pearjuice 13y ago
  So what women need to start doing is carrying guns? If a man starts touching you without your consent you shoot them, simple, right? At any point she could have screamed, said "No" or simply stand up. Being tipsy doesn't paralyze your muscles. You can still speak and resist. If was she actively resisting anyone would have gotten between her and him much earlier and the police report would be in her favor immediately. It is not until she feels penetrating contact, she begs him to think about his wife. In no instance before that (ass grabbing, facial kissing, tongue-to-tongue contact) she even pointed out possible resistance. How is it not her responsibility to not climb on that bar when her boss is around? To not lift her shirt in front of her boss?
  - gregd 13y ago
    pearjuice, you continue to take your arguments to ridiculous conclusions in order to justify what happened to Justine. Just fucking stop. We aren't talking about brushing up against someone at the bar. Her fucking boss took the body shot as an invitation to sexually assault her. What's so fucking difficult to understand about that?
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
gregd 13y ago
I'm sitting here, toiling away on HN, happy in the fact that I'd seen it all. Then I read your comment. You couldn't possibly be using Wikipedia as a justification for sexual assault, could you?
dodyg 13y ago
She agreed to the body shot and nothing else. There's no consent for other things. Body shot is not a 'gateway drug' to sexual assaults.
- kristofferR 13y ago
  Consent is almost always just implied, not explicit. I'm in no way defending him or his actions, but it's understandable how an intoxicated guy (therefore less able to read subtle body language signals) could think an act of foreplay like licking alcohol from her body was a way of consenting to further sexual advances.
  - dodyg 13y ago
    A body shot is not a foreplay to anything. If you need reference, go ask any university party goers.
  - ryanbrunner 13y ago
    I could maybe accept this argument if he tried to advance things, and stopped when it was clear she wasn't reciprocating. There's a sexual element to a body shot, and there's really no use denying that fact. But when you kiss someone, and they fail to reciprocate, and certainly when someone tells you to stop, you've clearly crossed a line. In my mind, there's absolutely no room for grey area in this from the point she said "stop".
    - kristofferR 13y ago
      Her post is light on details, so it's hard to decipher how Joe perceived the situation. > But when you kiss someone, and they fail to reciprocate... It's likely that he didn't notice her not reciprocating the kiss. He might also have though she was just a bit shy or simply a bad kisser. > In my mind, there's absolutely no room for grey area in this from the point she said "stop". Agreed, no doubt about it. However, this is what she wrote: "I told Joe to stop and reminded him he had a wife and children. He said, “Don’t’ worry about it we have an agreement”" There's a massive difference between "Stop, I don't want this" and "Stop, we shouldn't do this because you have a wife and kids". It seems to me like Joe though she meant it the second way. This whole story seems like a tragic case of serious miscommunication between two intoxicated people, not a vile act of evil.
untog 13y ago
You're forgetting that they pressured her to do it. So, socially pressure someone into doing something sexually submissive = she's fair game to go further? Yeah. That's sick.
- Dalkore 13y ago
  She should of just gotten up from the bar. From how the story reads, I don't think she was laying down at that point so she had the opportunity to walk away. 4 separate acts happened and by her account 3 were unwanted. How many does it take for someone to just remove themselves from the situation? How many?
- pearjuice 13y ago
  They physically assaulted her and pinned her down on the bar? What I have read translates to her being an independent woman who voluntarily rolled her shirt up and decided to climb on the bar.

kallekalle 13y ago

Let's set aside the fact that you've just decided to do a body shot off a colleague. > I cannot explain to men how hard it is being a woman trying to play it cool in an industry of men. I want everyone to think I’m cool and relaxed so I try and just play by their rules. Regardless I got on the bar and lifted my shirt as far as I was comfortable. You cite Wikipedia like it was a boolean logic kind of situation where just taking part means an invitation to anything a drunk brain can come up with. Being drunk is not an excuse. Sincerely, a dude who likes women

pearjuice 13y ago
If being drunk is not an excuse why did she throw all of her responsibilities out of the window and decided to climb on that bar, lift her shirt in front of colleagues and other professionals in her field? >I want everyone to think I’m cool and relaxed so I try and just play by their rules. followed by "Regardless" says a lot about her sense of responsibility and ability to see what exactly she was doing, implying and portraying by lying down on that bar. Or was it the alcohol? Because certainly nobody lifted her on that bar, right? Nobody pushed her down when her boss groped her? Nobody held her mouth open when her boss sticked his tongue in? Nobody told her "your boss has all right to touch you, Justine. Stay flat, your boyfriend will never know"?
- gregd 13y ago
  Jesus christ. Lying down on bar - doing body shot != permission to sexually assault.
  - general_failure 13y ago
    I disagree. I have never heard the term body shot before but from all wikipedia tells me, I would conside it acceptable for a man to grab a womaons ass if the woman was in a body shot. If the woman screams no that's a different this g but it didnt happen here.
    - gregd 13y ago
      I disagree So you believe that if you do a body shot of off someone, you then have permission to sexually assault them? Wow..
      - jacobtracey 13y ago
        People in this world do just grab peoples asses, kiss them, etc. all the time without explicit consent. Even without doing body shots.
        general_failure 13y ago
        Exactly. If someone goes as far as a body shot , I consider something like kissing very minor detail. Maybe its a cultural thing. I see this in movies all the time. Now you guys are telling me its sexual assault.
        chris_wot 13y ago
        Indeed, we are.
        steveklabnik 13y ago
        We call this "rape culture."

thomasmeeks 13y ago

Your definitions are tangential to the argument. A body shot is risque, but they are not an open invitation to groping and fingering. Your point amounts to "her skirt was too short." Before you cry out straw-man, don't. Nowhere on wikipedia does it say body shots guarantee consent to groping and fingering. The fact it occurred on her navel doesn't mean 'yes'. By all accounts she was at least tipsy, if not outright drunk. Further, Joe was her boss at the time (i.e. position of authority). The responsibility was squarely on his shoulders to be 110% positive that his advances were welcomed. Whether he was unable to do that because he was too drunk, too excited, or didn't care does not matter. He failed in that responsibility and it is nobody's fault but his own.

pearjuice 13y ago
So what women need to start doing is carrying guns? If a man starts touching you without your consent you shoot them, simple, right? At any point she could have screamed, said "No" or simply stand up. Being tipsy doesn't paralyze your muscles. You can still speak and resist. If was she actively resisting anyone would have gotten between her and him much earlier and the police report would be in her favor immediately. It is not until she feels penetrating contact, she begs him to think about his wife. In no instance before that (ass grabbing, facial kissing, tongue-to-tongue contact) she even pointed out possible resistance. How is it not her responsibility to not climb on that bar when her boss is around? To not lift her shirt in front of her boss?
- gregd 13y ago
  pearjuice, you continue to take your arguments to ridiculous conclusions in order to justify what happened to Justine. Just fucking stop. We aren't talking about brushing up against someone at the bar. Her fucking boss took the body shot as an invitation to sexually assault her. What's so fucking difficult to understand about that?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]

gregd 13y ago

I'm sitting here, toiling away on HN, happy in the fact that I'd seen it all. Then I read your comment. You couldn't possibly be using Wikipedia as a justification for sexual assault, could you?

dodyg 13y ago

She agreed to the body shot and nothing else. There's no consent for other things. Body shot is not a 'gateway drug' to sexual assaults.

kristofferR 13y ago
Consent is almost always just implied, not explicit. I'm in no way defending him or his actions, but it's understandable how an intoxicated guy (therefore less able to read subtle body language signals) could think an act of foreplay like licking alcohol from her body was a way of consenting to further sexual advances.
- dodyg 13y ago
  A body shot is not a foreplay to anything. If you need reference, go ask any university party goers.
- ryanbrunner 13y ago
  I could maybe accept this argument if he tried to advance things, and stopped when it was clear she wasn't reciprocating. There's a sexual element to a body shot, and there's really no use denying that fact. But when you kiss someone, and they fail to reciprocate, and certainly when someone tells you to stop, you've clearly crossed a line. In my mind, there's absolutely no room for grey area in this from the point she said "stop".
  - kristofferR 13y ago
    Her post is light on details, so it's hard to decipher how Joe perceived the situation. > But when you kiss someone, and they fail to reciprocate... It's likely that he didn't notice her not reciprocating the kiss. He might also have though she was just a bit shy or simply a bad kisser. > In my mind, there's absolutely no room for grey area in this from the point she said "stop". Agreed, no doubt about it. However, this is what she wrote: "I told Joe to stop and reminded him he had a wife and children. He said, “Don’t’ worry about it we have an agreement”" There's a massive difference between "Stop, I don't want this" and "Stop, we shouldn't do this because you have a wife and kids". It seems to me like Joe though she meant it the second way. This whole story seems like a tragic case of serious miscommunication between two intoxicated people, not a vile act of evil.

untog 13y ago

You're forgetting that they pressured her to do it. So, socially pressure someone into doing something sexually submissive = she's fair game to go further? Yeah. That's sick.

Dalkore 13y ago
She should of just gotten up from the bar. From how the story reads, I don't think she was laying down at that point so she had the opportunity to walk away. 4 separate acts happened and by her account 3 were unwanted. How many does it take for someone to just remove themselves from the situation? How many?
pearjuice 13y ago
They physically assaulted her and pinned her down on the bar? What I have read translates to her being an independent woman who voluntarily rolled her shirt up and decided to climb on the bar.