5 ms·

I'm more anti spying than anyone else, but how is this relevant?

eevilspock 13y ago
How does such spying jive with the following? What, after all, do we mean by Western civilization? What was Churchill driving at in his definition, quoted above? There are three irreducible elements. First, the rule of law. The government of the day doesn’t get to set the rules. Those rules exist on a higher plane, and are interpreted by independent magistrates. The law, in other words, is not an instrument of state control, but a mechanism open to any individual seeking redress. Not only are the governments setting the rules, they are denying individuals seeking redress. Worse, with gag orders, we can't even know if redress is owed.
Apocryphon 13y ago
Undoubtedly the democratic institutions and cultures of the Anglo-American culture achieved great things. But the triumphalist tone of this article not only whitewashes the cost in blood that created this civilization of law, and ignores injustices that still go on today. It just comes out sounding really self-congratulatory. I'm no fan of Howard Zinn or Marxist historical revisionism. But this article makes it sound like the game is done and the West has won. Perhaps if it had been more prescriptive, urging the Anglosphere to strive to be better, to refine the rule of law, increase personal liberty, and reform representative government, then it would be more convincing.
- alexeisadeski3 13y ago
  One of the article's points is that civilization isn't secure, it's always under threat from enemies both foreign and domestic - that there are lots of things wrong with the Anglosphere with need to be fixed. So then someone points out something wrong with the Anglosphere, something which needs to be fixed, and that comment gets voted to the top. I don't get it. Further, it's not as if the author is trying to paint the Anglosphere as perfect. The best, healthiest culture in existence? Yes. Perfect? Obviously not.
  - eevilspock 13y ago
    By whose definition is it the best and healthiest? Most powerful != best or healthiest. Anglosphere. What a load of crap. If the center of gravity of this article's definition of "civilization" is currently in America and previously in Britain, it's an artifact of history, not of "Anglo". The center was once in Italy, and before that in Greece. If you've read Russian literature you'd see the democratic spirit was there too. And then there's India, a piece of this so-called "Anglosphere". What did India do? It threw out the tyranny that was the British Empire. You'll probably argue that this somehow proves the beauty of the "Anglosphere".
    - sounds 13y ago
      The article is very particular to note the origin of the word "Anglosphere." Which of Stephenson's novels is your favorite?
      - Apocryphon 13y ago
        I suspect that the author may have just looked up the entry for the word on Wikipedia. I was surprised that Stephenson had been the one to coin the term; I'm still wondering if that's an accurate claim or not.

How does such spying jive with the following? What, after all, do we mean by Western civilization? What was Churchill driving at in his definition, quoted above? There are three irreducible elements. First, the rule of law. The government of the day doesn’t get to set the rules. Those rules exist on a higher plane, and are interpreted by independent magistrates. The law, in other words, is not an instrument of state control, but a mechanism open to any individual seeking redress. Not only are the governments setting the rules, they are denying individuals seeking redress. Worse, with gag orders, we can't even know if redress is owed.

Apocryphon 13y ago

Undoubtedly the democratic institutions and cultures of the Anglo-American culture achieved great things. But the triumphalist tone of this article not only whitewashes the cost in blood that created this civilization of law, and ignores injustices that still go on today. It just comes out sounding really self-congratulatory. I'm no fan of Howard Zinn or Marxist historical revisionism. But this article makes it sound like the game is done and the West has won. Perhaps if it had been more prescriptive, urging the Anglosphere to strive to be better, to refine the rule of law, increase personal liberty, and reform representative government, then it would be more convincing.

alexeisadeski3 13y ago
One of the article's points is that civilization isn't secure, it's always under threat from enemies both foreign and domestic - that there are lots of things wrong with the Anglosphere with need to be fixed. So then someone points out something wrong with the Anglosphere, something which needs to be fixed, and that comment gets voted to the top. I don't get it. Further, it's not as if the author is trying to paint the Anglosphere as perfect. The best, healthiest culture in existence? Yes. Perfect? Obviously not.
- eevilspock 13y ago
  By whose definition is it the best and healthiest? Most powerful != best or healthiest. Anglosphere. What a load of crap. If the center of gravity of this article's definition of "civilization" is currently in America and previously in Britain, it's an artifact of history, not of "Anglo". The center was once in Italy, and before that in Greece. If you've read Russian literature you'd see the democratic spirit was there too. And then there's India, a piece of this so-called "Anglosphere". What did India do? It threw out the tyranny that was the British Empire. You'll probably argue that this somehow proves the beauty of the "Anglosphere".
  - sounds 13y ago
    The article is very particular to note the origin of the word "Anglosphere." Which of Stephenson's novels is your favorite?
    - Apocryphon 13y ago
      I suspect that the author may have just looked up the entry for the word on Wikipedia. I was surprised that Stephenson had been the one to coin the term; I'm still wondering if that's an accurate claim or not.